The Az Star writes about both Oro Valley & Marana programs asking for support in shopping locally.
Oro Valley has had a program to shop locally since Nov 2008, and we certainly encourage everyone to frequent Oro Valley shops whenever possible.
There is one major exception.
We encourage ALL our readers to avoid shopping at the Oro Valley Marketplace.
Why?
Because it makes absolutely no sense to give Vestar almost 1/2 of our sales tax revenue every time you buy anything with tax. It's crazy to give Vestar $45 out of every $100 we collect. There is NOTHING special that requires anyone to shop there.
Whether it be a chain store or a "mom & pop shop," there are other viable alternatives in Oro Valley.
We agree----Keep Oro Valley dollars in Oro Valley---but not in the pockets of Vestar.
Read the Az Star story here, including the fact in the fiscal year ended June 30, Oro Valley collected $16 million in sales taxes, which was almost 44% of our General Fund revenue.
http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=361824526868946733&pli=1
24 comments:
Art, sadly your comments hurt all of the businesses that have opened in the Oro Valley Marketplace. You can continue to be angry about Vestar, but why try to punish local business owners. Your advice, "We encourage ALL our readers to avoid shopping at the Oro Valley Marketplace" is misguided and sadly, in the end, can hurt Oro Valley residents...Remember we do not have a property tax and rely on local sales tax revenues. Many stores in the OV Marketplace do not exist elsewhere in Oro Valley, so you are suggesting that shoppers take their shopping outside of the town limits. What a same and very shortsighted.
At this point in history, the Oro Valley Marketplace is a done deal. It is was it is.
Better the sales revenues should go there than outside of Oro Valley. There is no other Olive Garden to frequent; no other Dick's Sporting Goods; no other In n' Out Burger no other movie theatre and no other megastore like WalMart.
The fact that we were lied to about what the upscale nature of the Marketplace is history.
The fact that some of the sales tax revenues go to Vestar (and probably back to the tenants to have induced them to locate there) is legal and binding.
Those who fought against the deal fought valiantly but lost.
But did they really lose?
Much has changed since then. All who made the deal are gone. Such deals are now adjudicated as illegal by the Arizona Supreme Court. There will be no future "outrageous giveaways"
I prefer that we make "lemonade out of lemons." Let the Marketplace flourish. Shop there. Enjoy.
Better to have some tax revenues from there than none at all.
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Thank you, Zee Man, for being a voice on reason on this subject!
Jay D--- It's not the first time The Zeeman & I have disagreed on an issue---and I expect, it won't be the last.
However, YOU need not misquote me.
You wrote--- "...you are suggesting that shoppers take their shopping outside of the town limits. What a same (sic) and very shortsighted."
I wrote: "Whether it be a chain store or a "mom & pop shop," there are other viable alternatives in Oro Valley."
I stand by that comment.
Sure, there's ONLY one Walmart in OV, but there IS a Target. There's only one Dick's, but there Is a Big 5 & Sports Authority. There's only one Petco, but there IS a PetSmart.
We can get a phone elsewhere, a haircut elsewhere, nails done elsewhere, computers elsewhere, shoes elsewhere, etc. etc. All within Oro Valley with a full 2% sales tax for the town.
And, keep in mind, ALL these other stores were here WITHOUT any giveaways PRIOR to Vestar showing up with their unkept promises
I will not spend my money to line Vestar's pockets now or in the future. Period!
I respect Art's opinion regarding Marketplace. He is entitled to believe and shop as he chooses. However, I believe that Zee Man's post is an example of how we can move forward as a community. Many will not agree with the economic development agreement given to Vestar. Definitions of upscale venues will be debated and argued. But, in the end it is what we have. I go to Best Buy to buy electronics and to Dick's to buy sporting goods. They are my preferred stores for those types of of items. Since there is not another Best Buy or Dick's in Oro Valley I will go there. I would rather .55 of each of my OV tax dollars go to OV rather than none at all.
I LIKE having a movie theater here in the OV.
Shop till you drop!! Enjoy it for what it is.
James--- Yours is a perfect example of a diverse opinion from mine where I can certainly accept your point.
We're all free to decide if we wish to spend our tax dollars there, or elsewhere.
As noted, I choose the latter.
Case in point. We used to get Chinese food at the restaurant by Walgreens in Rancho Vistoso.
They recently moved to the OVM. I no longer get my Chinese food there.
Right or wrong---it's my choice.
As I always practiced and advocated in 'negotiating the sale', relative to markup,margins,profitability, etc., 55% of something is better than 0% of nothing. Alternative shopping/dining doesn't always allow for MY wants and/or needs nor is there always such available. Also, the faster the 'cap' on the OV 'revenue sharing' is reached, the quicker we can start realizing the 100% of 'everything'.
We all have the right to choose where we shop and we all have the right to "boycott" certain businesses if we don't like their business practices or the owner's attitude.
Vestar deliberately lied to us and I will not give them a dime of my money as a result. I do not reward bad behavior. Ditto for Bonnie and Michael Quinn. They both behaved like petulant teenagers at town council meetings and I have not patronized their businesses since.
Jay D asked, "You can continue to be angry about Vestar, but why punish local business owners?" The answer is...because by not shopping at those businesses, we are actually punishing Vestar. If we do shop there, we are rewarding Vestar. And those businesses were well aware when they signed those leases with Vestar that 3,000 Oro Valley citizens had signed a pledge NOT to shop at OVM.
Jay D says it's "misguided" not to shop at OVM because the loss of those sales tax dollars could result in a property tax for Oro Valley. If that happens, it will be Vestar's fault for promising us one thing and delivering another. Remember, if they had actually kept their word and filled that mall with "upscale shops" and "signature shops" then all of the people who are currently boycotting the mall would actually be shopping there instead.
Zee Man says, "Let the Marketplace flourish." And Jay D believes that if it does, then OV will flourish as well and we won't need a property tax. Although that's a good argument, problem is, my bottom line is different from Jay's.
Jay D's bottom line is the property tax.
My bottom line is not rewarding bad behavior.
If I have to pay a property tax someday, at least ALL of it will be going to the town instead of HALF of it going to Vestar.
Jay D thinks that's "misguided" but I think it's misguided to give your money to someone who stabbed you in the back.
Art, I did NOT misquote you...I do still feel that you are suggesting that shoppers take their money outside of Oro Valley. Yes, there are multiple pet stores, restaurants, sporting good stores, etc., in Oro Valley. But if an Oro Valley resident wants to go to the movies, according to your desires, it is necessary to leave the town, since you encourage ALL to avoid spending money at the OV Marketplace. If a resident wants to eat at Olive Garden, In-N-Out, or the new Keg Steakhouse, you suggest leaving Oro Valley to dine at these places. What about Best Buy? Or Famous Footwear? Or Tilly's? Or World Market? I guess you would prefer that rather than shop at these stores locally, we support the City of Tucson and spend our money there.
I will stand by my original comments. Your comments are a shame and are shortsighted. It is your choice to continue your protest of Vestar and the Oro Valley Marketplace, but I for one want the best for this town and I realize that we need sales tax revenues.
What about the business owners in the OV Marketplace who had nothing to do with anything that happened in the past? Your suggestion to avoid the Marketplace hurts those businesses. This is unfair to those owners and unfair to our town, which benefits from the sales tax revenues generated by shopping there!
Art, you are entitled to your opinion. My frustration is that you state, "We encourage ALL our readers to avoid shopping at the Oro Valley Marketplace." Judging by the responses, aside from Zee Man, other people here believe that shopping at the Oro Valley Marketplace helps this town. So while you are entitled to your opinion, it's too bad that you feel everyone else should follow suit.
Jay D--- Thanks for allowing me to express MY opinion on MY blog. Your generosity did not go unnoticed.
You may also have missed the intelligent comment from "James." I took NO issue with his point of view.
You may believe you know what's best for Oro Valley.
I believe it is best for Oro Valley and its citizens to keep ALL sales tax revenue if given a choice.
While 55% of something is better than zero---the option of 100% certainly exceeds 55%.
I will continue to spend my money at Oro Valley establishments and avoid Vestar and their Marketplace.
VC quotes me by saying, "Jay D says it's "misguided" not to shop at OVM because the loss of those sales tax dollars could result in a property tax for Oro Valley." I did NOT say anything about the loss of sales tax dollars resulting in a property tax. What I said was, "Remember we do not have a property tax and rely on local sales tax revenues," which is a fact. Maybe at some point in our future, we will have a property tax, but I was only emphasizing the point that our town relies strictly on sales tax revenue!
Yes, you all have the right to choose where to shop. But again, I will point out that "boycotting" the Oro Valley Marketplace hurts those business owners and your town! While it's possible that 3,000 people signed some anti-OVM petition, I would bet that many of those signers were angry then, but shop there now! Potential shoppers at the Oro Valley Marketplace include people from outside of the town (since we are not living inside a fortress) and 40,000 plus residents who wish to shop, dine, go to the movies, etc., locally.
JayD--- We finally have agreement.
We can ALL decide where to shop or not shop.
You and others can use this blog to advocate your position.
I can certainly do likewise.
I do not wish to allow our readers to forget what Vestar promised---and what they delivered.
I am appreciative to those that wish to follow my lead. Others like "James" will do what is best for them.
I can accept that.
First off, it's everyone's right to shop wherever they please for whatever motives they have. I don't have a strong opinion on this issue, I just want to point out some (unintended) consequences of advocating a boycott.
I don't think there is a chance for this boycott to grow so much as to have any effect at all, but say there is one. Say, then, that these businesses go out of business. Potential entrepreneurs and business owners looking to expand will mistake this for a sign that OV is not a good business place and look elsewhere.
Whatever happened, happened. I understand the frustration and anger some bloggers here express. But it's in the past, let's move on. Shop wherever you want, preferably in OV though.
Jay D,
Is it possible for you to disagree with someone else's opinion without stating that their point of view is "shameful?" You do this repeatedly. I once said something that you didn't like and your response was, "Shame on you and shame on this blog for printing such nonsense!"
Your first post on this stream ends with, "What a shame and very shortsighted." What makes you think that your opinions are so noble and everyone else's opinions are shameful?
Art is not suggesting that shoppers ALWAYS take their money outside of Oro Valley. He suggests shopping at PetSmart in OV instead of Petco in OV, Sports Authority in OV instead of Dick's Sporting Goods in OV, etc. Why? Because OV will get 100% of the tax dollars on those purchases instead of 55%. Why do you have a problem with that considering that you're so concerned with tax revenue?
You ask, "What about the business owners in the OV Marketplace who had nothing to do with anything that happened in the past?" I guess you're not aware that most of those businesses know "what happened" because OV1st sent letters to those businesses informing them of what happened PRIOR to those stores signing leases with Vestar. They chose to sign the leases anyway. I am not responsible for someone else's bad business decision.
Then you say to Art, "while you are entitled to your opinion, it's too bad that you feel everyone else should follow suit."
Jay D, the same can be said of you. YOU feel that everyone else should follow suit...follow YOUR opinion.
Isn't it interesting how, on one hand, certain bloggers will state that Art and this blog don't have any persuasion/clout in this town, and as evidence for this they'll say things like, "This blog failed to get even one of their candidates elected."
But on the other hand, when Art makes a "suggestion" that people not shop at OVM, these same bloggers work themselves into a froth over it. They're so worried that OVM will shut down because Art suggested that we not shop there, and OMG, now we'll have a property tax!
So which is it? Either Art's suggestions carry weight or they don't. Pick one.
Here's something to ponder...
If everything Art says is so stupid and no ill-thought out and so shortsighted and so shameful, AND the people of Oro Valley are so smart and well-informed, then why would ANY of Art's comments or suggestions worry you so much?
Jay D,
You said...
"Remember we do not have a property tax and rely on local sales tax revenues."
Then you said...
"I did NOT say anything about the loss of sales tax dollars resulting in a property tax."
Huh? Your exact words were...
"REMEMBER WE DO NOT HAVE A PROPERTY TAX AND RELY ON LOCAL SALES TAX REVENUES."
What are we relying on local sales tax revenues to do? We rely on that revenue to run the town. What happens if we don't have enough sales tax revenues to run the town? We turn to a property tax instead.
Sufficient sales tax revenue equals no property tax.
Insufficient sales tax revenue equals a property tax in our future.
But that's NOT what you were saying?
Regarding the 3,000 people who signed the pledge, you said, "I would bet that many of those signers were angry then, but shop there now!" Well, if you're right, then why are you so worried about the boycott when apparently the mall is only being boycotted by a handful of people?
Cowgirl--- Thanks again for putting things in perspective.
Your 3 comments pretty much says it all.
There are those among us that believe the issue of Vestar and the "bill of goods" they sold too many of the citizens is "old news."
Every time I drive on Oracle rd and see that ugly OVM entrance with the multicolor signs in red, yellow, blue, black, etc, it's hard to not remember what we were promised and what we got---for OUR $23.2 million.
VC, apparently you, like Art, have misinterpreted my comments. It seems so silly that I have to define my use of words to help with the interpretation. I use "shame," as in Merriam Webster's definition, "something to be regretted." You tend to misquote me, but I'm pretty sure I never commented with the word "shameful," since it's not a word I use. Honestly, why does it matter to you what sort of words I use? You don't respond to Art, asking him why he makes comments like "damn," "what nonsense," "premise is faulty," "conclusion is worthless," etc. Is it that you prefer to criticize only those bloggers who disagree with your point of view? Maybe you and Art are the same person!
My frustration here is that many of the comments, like "We encourage ALL our readers to avoid shopping at the Oro Valley Marketplace," are inappropriate (in my opinion). Besides, Art uses "we," but his fellow blogmaster, the Zee Man does not agree with him!
Again, VC, if you read my entire post, you will see that I named several stores, shops, movie theaters, etc., that are available in the Oro Valley Marketplace, but not elsewhere in Oro Valley. So Art's reasoning implies that anytime I want to go to the movies, I should take my movie money outside of Oro Valley. Or if I want to shop at the World Market, or Tilly's, or DSW Shoes, etc., etc., I must leave Oro Valley.
In terms of the sales tax discussion, again, I did NOT say the lack of sales tax revenue would lead to a property tax. That's your conclusion. I don't necessarily disagree with that, but I never made those comments.
Personally, I do not feel that Art's suggestions carry weight...I was attempting to point out how his comments are not good for this town! I don't necessarily feel that everyone should follow suit and agree with my opinion, but I do feel that it's important that the facts are out there and readers understand all the ramifications of not shopping locally. You prefer to be stuck with your anger over Vestar...I prefer to move on and do what's right for this town.
Jay D,
If you "did NOT say the lack of sales tax revenue would lead to a property tax" can you tell me then exactly what you WERE saying when you said these words:
"REMEMBER WE DO NOT HAVE A PROPERTY TAX AND RELY ON LOCAL SALES TAX REVENUES."
If there is another way to interpret that sentence, please enlighten us all.
You asked, "Honestly, why does it matter to you what sort of words I use?"
You then said, "Art uses 'we' but his fellow blogmaster, the Zee Man does not agree with him!"
Hmmm...sounds like it matters to you what sort of words other people use.
As for your comment, "You prefer to be stuck with your anger over Vestar," would it help you to know that even if Vestar had been honest and told us that they were going to build a junk mall with a Wal-Mart anchor, I STILL would not be shopping there! There are stores that I am loyal to and none of them are located at OVM.
You said you prefer to "do what's right for this town." Unfortunately, your definition of doing what's right involves being loyal to someone who was NOT loyal to you or to this town.
What a shame!
Let me say that "monitored blogging" might be referred to as "censored blogging." I attempted to write a comment regarding the "Possible Demise of the DRB," but it was not posted. I have to wonder if Art chose not to post it, because I point out that it was Garner and Gillaspie who, at the April 7 Town Council meeting, recommended Option C: Staff would assume all recommendation & approval responsibilities, including architecture, that were formerly reviewed by DRB. The Town Council would disband the Development Review Board. Final approvals for these submittals remain with Town Council.
Art suggests that if Hiremath "has his way," the demise of the DRB is "a done deal," but the facts are that Garner and Gillaspie recommended to disband the DRB.
VC...My point regarding the sales tax is that local businesses and their sales and the resulting taxes are what help keep this community alive. Period. There is only ONE way to interpret that sentence. I said NOTHING about a property tax. I was suggesting that if local businesses are hurt by a lack of sales, the town will be hurt.
It does matter to me that Art uses words like "we" to discourage ALL residents from shopping at the Oro Valley Marketplace. "We" implies that the blog owners are making this recommendation and this is false. My use of a word like "shame" is a subjective word, my opinion. "We" is not an opinion, but a statement of fact, and in this case, "we" is false.
Let's be clear on this.
This blog is not advocating a boycott of the Oro Valley Marketplace. Art is stating that he will not shop there and suggests that others don't. As I and Art have noted, I do not agree with this and I do shop the Oro Valley Marketplace.
Jay D,
Just so we're clear...
First you said, "Remember we do not have a PROPERTY TAX and rely on local sales tax revenues."
Then you said, "I said NOTHING about a property tax."
Yes you did. In the grand scheme of things, of course, this isn't important. I'm just tired of being told that I don't have my facts straight.
As an aside, where are all the courtyards that were supposed to be part of that mall? You were supposed to be able to sit in the beautiful courtyard enjoying an ice cream with your friends. Where is it? You were also supposed to be able to WALK the entire mall (not drive from one end to the other).
We were lied to on so many levels.
Now I'm off to LaEncantada to sit in the beautiful courtyard and enjoy an ice cream or perhaps a cupcake.
Can I bring you back anything?
Okay, VC...you got me...Yes, the words "property tax" were in my first post, but what I have been disagreeing with you about is this comment you made: "Jay D says it's "misguided" not to shop at OVM because the loss of those sales tax dollars could result in a property tax for Oro Valley."
Again, I never said anything about the loss of sales tax dollars resulting in a property tax. That is your assumption.
So let's be clear...I did use those two dreaded words, but not as you imply.
I guess we can both be tired...
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