This from one of our bloggers: Re The Naranja Town Site Bond Proposal:
"My problem is this. The last council approved this $48.6 million bond issue [for the Naranja Town Site] that will be paid off by a secondary property tax. On top of that, we will be financing and paying off another $32 million for the new Oro Valley Operations Center. Also, let's not forget the recently approved Steam Pump Ranch that will be subsidized in part by Oro Valley taxpayers.
We still have the Utility Tax the last council stuck us with.
I don't need to tell you anything about the cost of necessities, especially for those of us on fixed income. Without getting mellow dramatic, there are some seniors that must choose between medication and food. Gas is almost $4.00/gal. Utility costs, including water & electric have increased dramatically.
My point is this. This park is a lot more than we need. Here's what is included:
12 Tennis Courts
9 Basketball Courts
5 Sand Volleyball Courts
4 Baseball Fields
4 Softball Fields
3 Soccer Fields
Multi-Purpose Field
Horseshoe Pits
Nature Center
Hiking/Jogging Trails
Playgrounds
Festival Area
Bicycle (BMX) Track
Skate Park
Dog Park
Picnic Ramadas
Had the previous council been a little more circumspect, I and many others would not be against it. By "circumspect," I mean less fields/courts and less costly.
To me, paying for food, gas, utilities, insurance, medicine and other items are necessities. This park is a luxury."
The costs our blogger refers to are just the tip of the iceberg. Hundreds of dollars will be added to the average property owners tax bill. Tens of thousands of dollars will be added to Oro Valley town spending. And there are hidden costs like the costs of added insurance and law suits from injuries. And all this for at least the next twenty years!
Its a heavy load for Oro Valley taxpayers to shoulder, especially in what is and will continue to be very tough economic times
17 comments:
We are voting NO.
Why does a town this size need all these things in a local park?
Costs to maintain this park will be
sky high.
Who will monitor the park to make sure that residents are using the park rather then people from all over.
We don't really care to pay for non-residents to use this park.
We might agree to vote Yes if this park plan consisted of a few ball fields and nature trails or something similar.
Costs to maintain this park are what really worry us, not the few dollars a month for the bond .
Will we need to hire more police, this park has the potential to attract more crime or trouble. Check with some of the local communities in OV, there is always some type of vandalism going on with the small parks, etc and the cost to replace and repair is very expensive so imagine this on a big scale.
Lots of money will be spent on vandalism related repairs.
Think this is over the top for a small or mid size town.
Oh, but Zee Man, it's only a few bucks per household. Of course it's been only a few bucks more for gasoline, a few bucks more for food, a few bucks more for water, a few bucks more for electricity, a few bucks more for steam pump ranch, a few bucks more for gas, a few bucks more for my homeowners dues, a few bucks more for garbage, a few bucks more for property taxes, and a few bucks more for my health insurance; Zee Man, it's only a few bucks more here, there, and everywhere, maybe just a few thousand plus dollars a year. So, what's the problem? After all, my income hasn't gone down too much. Of course, I'm retired and it is somewhat fixed but I do manage to get by. But, look at it this way, the kids (and some middle agers) get tennis courts, volleyball courts, baseball fields, softball fields,soccer fields, tether ball courts,playgrounds, etc. and what do I get except an additional place to go soak up the heat - bubkas!
And remember, this is only the beginning! Once planted, there are going to be more trees needed to fill the forest, there are going to be more personnel needed to maintain the forest, and there are going to be more vandals around to maim the forest. The proponents can't see the forest through the trees.
As a side note, those proponents cite that hundreds of persons have given input to this project. That input is not only outdated, it was conducted during the 'boom' years.
It has been estimated that the economic turnaround make take longer than 2 years to even begin to improve.
As another aside, while the previous regime worked on getting this project 'together' they were giving away an exhorbitant amount to developers.
THIS WHOLE SITUATION DOESN'T MAKE SENSE!
Zev,
You got that right. Also if the town had not given away the 23.2 million to Vestar maybe voters would have had a different view of town spending habits. Not sure but maybe.
Also I see the town still not being able to cut budgets or decrease spending.
Most of us can't buy everything we would like to have. Wants v Needs.
Many will vote Yes as they won't
truly understand the long term cost of this project.
Kind of like those car sales tactics where they ask "how much do you want to spend a month for a payment", not what is the sale price of the car.
Maybe just a sign of the times.
The Naranja Town site is a situation where many will pay for the needs of a few. And they will pay for at least the next 20 years.
Oro Valley has been selected as a top ten town for families. Why not? Families get a free ride!
Oro Valley is not a top ten retirement community.
It's the many retirees who live here [on fixed income] who pay for facilities they never use.
Oro Valley is on the top 10 list to raise a family according to Family Circle magazine.
The magazine awarded that designation without the Naranja Park.
Many of us pay HOA fees that keep going up and many pay HOA fees that include recreational activities already.
I am totally disappointed in today's "adults" on this page. Our country was founded on the sacrifice of others. You sit around and complain of the youth of today, but won't raise a finger to help make their lives better.
One person asks how can we make sure that only the residents will use this park, what kind of question is that? What city park has a regulation that only the city residents can use?
One person comments that the families are getting a free ride while the retirees bear the load. Do you not think that we buy gas, food, own homes, have jobs? My gas bill and my food bill will go up just like yours, and my bills are 3 times yours with 4 kids and a job I have to drive to every day. Ridiculous.
Lastly, I pay $200 every two weeks in Social Security, that I will never see or have the opportunity to even have the choice (like you do with a park) to use. So, the property tax goes up, let's say an extreme number like $500/yr for you. That pales in comparison to what I bear every week so you can enjoy your retirement. Please do not give me excuses, give me solutions.
Are there too many tennis courts or some other field, possibly. There will not be a perfect solution, there never is. You all have been around long enough to know that.
Yes, let Oro Valley Excel. Let it take care of ALL the people, and this park is one thing that ALL people can enjoy.
Hi Kevin---- Thanks for taking me up on the offer to express your views to our readers.
The blog is here to interact with the community, and although our opinion differs from yours, it is easy to understand why a dad with four young sons would not only want a park, but would be willing to help subsidize it.
I think the problem those of us who are against it have, is the multitude of fields/courts. While you accept the fact this is what we are offered, and say "go for it," I, and others say, "come back with a more realistic, less costly alternative."
Fortunately, the majority of voters will determine the outcome---which is a lot different from the millions of dollars we gave to the retail developers that was decided by 3 ex-council members.
Hello Kevin.
You say "we sit around and complain of the youth of today, but won't raise a finger to help make their lives better"
You assume that all retired people and others against paying a property tax for the park are sitting around complaining about the youth of today.
First of all not all retired people are sitting around complaining , period. Next you assume that all retired people and others are doing nothing to help youth. Not so. Look around, read the paper, etc, lots of retired people are volunteering to help kids.
I don't want to pay a property tax to OV so that non-residents who won't be paying can use the park.
We already pay a property tax to Pima County that covers recreational needs.
You also seem to think that only retired citizens will vote against the property tax and families will vote for the property tax.
What do you base that on?
You also assume that all retired people don't have expenses involved in helping out family members with food, clothing and shelter expenses.
And many of us do so without having the benefit of a tax benefit.
Yes you pay social security taxes, we all did! And unfortunately some of us may never collect that benefit.
We all pay taxes that fund the schools and we pay that even if we don't have kids in the public school system, or never had kids, or had kids in private school.
We don't have a choice nor do we have a choice about paying SS tax.
Many will vote for the the bond and the tax because they won't be living in OV for years and years, so a few years of a small property tax is not a big deal. But for some of us who plan on staying here the rest of our lives, we see a never ending expense that will in time be out of control
And for what?
Kevin, let me express my views from a bit of a different perspective. Within your
'complaint' you make a statement relative to the number of children you must support. Might I suggest that perhaps YOU over procreated for the the means that you had/have at your disposal. After all, these children most probably didn't come all at once, so you reasonably should have known after the first couple what the cost might be. YOUR kids are not the responsibility of MY pocketbook to the extent that you seem to expect.
I worked for 44 years, my wife worked for 43 years, we had 2 children that we supported and put through school and over those years
we paid taxes in excess of 1.5 million dollars (income, property, sales, etc.), we donated monies to charity, and we helped individuals along the way and, of course, we had to eat, pay rent, drive to work, pay insurances, etc. We too, sacrificed and went without in order to put a little something away in order that we might be able to lay back a little and enjoy our golden years. Read carefully my above post and you might be able to read into it how my 'stash' is being eroded and my golden years are being tarnished. No, sir/madame, I simply don't think I owe you or your children anymore; at least, not to the extent of the extravagance you might think is necessary. Yes, I know that I still utilize some of the overall benefits of community living and I thus pay my share of taxes; but don't ask me to share in an overindulgence.
Today, I see lots of kids just hangin' out, driving BMWs, Grand Cherokees, Lexus, et al; I go to Riverfront Park and see empty fields, I go to Kreigh Park and see empty sports fields and an empty swimming pool. Just today I read an article on the diminishing interest in 'sandlot' baseball and the complaint from the 'pros' that the kids just don't have an interest in self-organization anymore - which, in turn, is one of the building blocks for self-motivation. They continue that the kids stay at home with their playstations, internet chatrooms, my space, my face, and so on.
If Oro Valley truly wants a COMMUNITY park, let them address that which a community is all about - retirees, working people, youth, nature, family; not a center dominated by athletic prominence.
Kevin, you are most probably a hard working and good family person; I will not deny you
that; but, this country needs to get back to some basics and that is not to constantly hit the 'but it's for the children' button. These kids today have more financial opportunities afforded them than I EVER did as a child but we made due with ingenuity, stamina, and heart! We need more of that from within, not from donations.
And, as an aside, mscoyote, in the early nineties, living in North Carolina, Raleigh was named as the number one place to live and work in the Country. The following year it dropped to around tenth and after that pretty much out of the picture. So, what happened? Well, let's see, more bonds, more taxes, more parks, more school costs, road decay, heavier traffic, MORE HUFF, MORE FLUFF, MORE PUFF, AND LESS ORDINARY STUFF,AND, they don't sell more magazines by repitititious accolades; wait 'till next year.
I've asked this question before but I never get an answer from those who think I owe their children a perfect life, so I'll ask it again.
Kevin, why can't your children ride their bikes, go rollerskating, play tag and hide and seek, etc., like the rest of us did when we were kids? Our parents didn't expect anyone to build a field of dreams for us, and since Zev and Ms Coyote and Art and myself are not writing these posts from our jail cells, apparently we all turned out just fine.
Why do YOUR kids NEED so much more?
VC, a super synopsis!
In regards to VCowgirl, when you were young and went out to ride your bike, or rollerskate did a parent go out and watch you to make sure you were safe. I know when I was young my parents felt secure in letting me go out by myself and play with neighborhood friends with out adult supervision. My point is things have changed and in this day and age parents can not just let their kids go out and play by themselves, although some do and that is there choice. But today parents have to deal with safety issues (think- sexual offenders). So now (for my family) we go out with our children for family bike rides, rollerskating/blading, play hide and seek in our home. In addition, we and many other parents opt to enroll their children in organized sports/teams which always have some type of adult supervision.
In regards to -is there really a need for all these fields; I say YES, there already is a need . Their are young children who have to get up early for school yet have to wait to have a game practice at 8PM or later since no fields are available for all the local teams out there to practice at a reasonable time, plus their are even younger children whose families have to travel out of town limits to practice at a reasonable time. There is a need for more fields in Oro Valley. Getting kids involved in sports will help keep kids out of trouble which helps keep the current low crime rate of Oro Valley low, which is one attribute that I hope we all would like to remain the same.
In regards to the post that said he/she went by the current parks/pools and noticed no major use of them. Let's address the pool, well there is no "pool" going to be included in the Naranja Park bond before us, so that is not a pertinent point, in my humble opinion. When did you go by the park/fields? was it now during the hot 90-100 degree summer days. I have gone by during the evening hours and have seen (on the fields) children/families playing with Frisbees, others have organized a game of flag football or soccer. At the playground toddlers were playing while adults supervised, families and adults taking their dogs for walks. Plus, teens (or older) playing basketball and tennis. I also suggest that you try going by one day in Sept and go after the school day has ended, or on the weekends. There are all the fields being used and parents there taking part in their children's lives. As I noted above there is a need for more fields, and as we will have more growth of families the need will grow greater.
As far as costs, the cost of keeping children active and in the right type of activities (away from the computers and tv's and drugs as they grow older) will help this community maintain our status of a better place for all to live.
In answer to VCowgirl, no you don't owe the children of OV a perfect life. I sure wish you had a more open mind to it, and a look at the bigger picture. I know most of you will come up with all the points in the world to refute what I've said. GOD BLESS AMERICA and the FREEDOM OF SPEECH, and let the voters decide.
Yes it would be great to have all the money in the world so every kid had everything they could want or need, for that matter, ditto for all of us.
Yes ballparks for the kids are a good thing.
But most of us feel that we don't want to pay a property tax for something we will never use and which the cost to run and maintain will go up every year. I am not sure anybody really knows how much it will cost anyway.
If it is so important that the kids have more fields to play and practice in then why not start
looking into ways to accomplish that.
Maybe get corporate sponsors. Maybe some of those big home builders and stores like Wal Mart can pay for the park. Let the growth pay for itself.
I doubt any poster on here wants to deny kids the place to play.
Some of us don't think its the job of the government to keep taking more of our money for more and more wants rather then needs.
Maybe those in favor of more parks could lobby the county.
Like I said before we already pay taxes to the county to provide recreational activities.
The newbies here bring up good points and say they wish others would be more open-minded, but I don't see them willing to consider the finances of the rest of us who may either be on a tight budget or would like to save for our own retirements, etc.
Speaking for myself and my better half we would be willing to donate some moneyto build a park but would like to give what we feel we can afford right now.
Who knows what the future holds.
We may all be out on the streets or living at the park.
A few years ago a bunch of ordinary citizens were standing around at a BBQ discussing the fact the local gov't did not supply us with enough ballfields for our kids. Instead of waiting for gov't to do something we went out sought corporate sponsors and private donors. The result was a great facilty that not only contains ballfields but is used for other family related activities.
A vast majority of the construction and maintainance cost were and have been assumed by private citizens and corporations NOT taxpayers.
Come on folks if you really want something bad enough go out and just do it, and your kids will be Very impressed. This country was built on the enterprise and independence of it's citizens not addiction and dependence on it's government.
Moe: I read your other post within another subject stream. I understand and empathize with some of your points but I cannot consider that, in the scope of ALL things, the way the Naranja Site is 'happening' is not the answer.
For much of the better years of our educational system, physical education was mandatory in ALL of the schools. We had within each school a gymnasium with basketball areas, a swimming pool, a couple of baseball fields, some open fields, etc. And all of us, men and women, were exposed to and took part in many sports and we learned teamwork as well as sportsmanship. And ALL of this was within the realm of our own neighborhoods (even though some of the schools might have been several miles away). This country needs to take a good look at it's educational system and require certain capital improvements within the school premises that fulfill those needs. I have mentioned in the past that I lived in Raleigh, NC; the newer schools that were being built there were campuses which were comprised of elementary, middle, and high schools within the same grounds. In addition they all had the above amenities which were available to all students at staggard times, of course. In addition, in at least one instance that I know of, the DEVELOPER of a large Planned Unit Development DONATED the land for such a campus to the County.
Last night on the program '60 Minutes' they proffered a re-run of how a couple of individuals have enlisted hundreds of thousands of children in crime and drug infested neighborhoods into music programs and have 'saved' and given purpose to hundreds of thousands of these impoverished kids from the ages of two on up.
While I intensly dislike their government, this has been taking place in Venezuela for many years.
A couple of years ago, a statement was made in an Oro Valley Town Council meeting that in a survey [most OV students stated that they would prefer more of a bent towards arts and performing arts than sports]. I cannot cite you who stated that or how it came up but I remember it well.
I guess I am saying to you that while I agree that perhaps more is needed in the capital additions to the sports arena, so is it that more is needed in the arts, in senior programs, in science, etc. etc. etc. Perhaps your retort could then be 'well, we had our chance at the whole shebang if we would have gone for the $160 million package'. At that I will refer you to my prior post above; try to understand it.
Right now this country is on extremely shaky ground monitarily, mentally, militarily, and industrially; there is no room for more choking of the citizens in order to benefit a relative few with an excessive application. Even Oro Valley can take a hard fall!
One last thing - in the end run who is really benefiting from all of this mostly sports facility? Is it really the kids? Is it the parents? Or, perhaps is this merely a misguided Town legacy?
Zev,
I admire the way you're able to see things from so many different angles.
Moe,
Even though we disagree on this issue, I do think your posts are well thought out and most importantly, they are civil, which is more than I can say for some of the bloggers on this site who turn into junior high school bullies when they don't get their way. (Maybe we need to sign them up for a sport!) I enjoy reading your thoughts and hope you'll continue to post.
You made a good point about how when I was a kid, my mother didn't have to watch me every second because we didn't have to worry about sexual predators. I was just thinking recently about how I walked 6 blocks to school when I was in kindergarten. My mother walked me the first few days to make sure I knew the way, and then I was on my own. It made me independent and self-sufficient. But would I let my 5 year old do that today? Probably not.
It's a shame really, because my generation and the generations before me learned to think for ourselves. Today's kids are so coddled and catered to that I think they are all going to grow up to be timid and socially incompetent.
While working in a psychiatric hospital, I met a patient who appeared to have it all. She grew up in a wealthy neighborhood, was pretty and smart and well-dressed and her family had given her everything when she was growing up. Then she went away to college and within a couple of months she had a nervous breakdown and ended up in the psych hospital.
She said she was so used to her family taking care of everything that when she got out on her own, she couldn't cope with all the decisions she had to make and it became overwhelming and she crumbled.
So she was given the best of everything and the good news was that she never ended up on drugs. The bad news was that she ended up in the psych ward instead, where, of course, they gave her drugs.
This was when I realized that the child who grows up with everything can turn out to be as emotionally unstable as the child who grows up with nothing. That's why I'm an advocate for a "happy medium."
Vote No on the Park tax
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