Wednesday, May 12, 2010

Two Explorer Letters. One Calls Me A "Troll." The Other Says I've Been "Dissed."

Below are two Explorer letters. For those readers that may not recognize the names " Alan Dankwerth" & Richard Tracy Sr." let me tell you, I believe it is people like them that are helping Mike Zinkin.

One refers to me----although not by name, as a "troll."

The other mentions my name and says I've been "dissed."

Read the letters, and please note they are the type of individuals that support Hiremath, Hornat & Waters.

Now perhaps you'll have a better understanding why we support Mike Zinkin & Matt Rabb.

In OV, 'trolls' try to instill fear in voters

Internet "slang" refers to someone who posts inflammatory messages, innuendos and insinuations, with the primary intent of distorting issues and discrediting individuals, as a "troll."

Here is an excellent example of "trolling." It deals with the Kai property (some 271 acres) bordered by First Avenue, Palisades and Tangerine roads.

Over the past five years, the Kais have requested general plan amendments to change the zoning from low density residential to high density residential and commercial. These requests were all turned down and, to date, there have been no changes in this land use.

In a 29 April posting, reference was made to the campaign signs of candidates Hiremath, Hornat and Waters having been placed on the Kai property, as many candidates, with Mr. Kai's permission, have done in previous campaigns.

The "troll" issued a " special caution" to homeowners bordering the Kai acreage, and stated that they "… get frightened beyond belief when the name 'Kai' comes up." In a further posting that day, the question was posed "who do you think will help Kai with a general plan amendment, if elected?" "Yup. It's those that have their signs there." "… favors beget favors."

Clearly innuendos and an attempt at instilling fear. It implies that, if elected, these three, since they were permitted to place their signs on the property, will help the Kais, should they request, to obtain an amendment to the general plan.

Changing an existing zoning designation of this type requires passage of a major amendment. Two-thirds or five town council members must approve it. Prior to its reaching the council, two public hearings are held by the Planning & Zoning Commission, as well as two neighborhood meetings. There is a public hearing at the town council meeting should the request get that far.

His last request was withdrawn by Mr. Kai well before it reached P&ZC due to homeowner opposition. The "process" prevents a change from being "rammed" through by a few.

Oro Valley voters should certainly want to question the judgment of any candidate who received, and accepted, an endorsement from those who deal in trolling.

Alan Dankwerth, Oro Valley

Is this chicanery of the highest order in OV?

As a resident of Oro Valley and a 13-year observer of OV government, politicians and elections in our community, I would urge citizens of Oro Valley, including my friends and neighbors, to vote for Satish Hiremath for mayor and Joe Hornat and Lou Waters for OV council as the best choices for these offices in this election.

I read in these pages where Mike Zinkin dissed Art Segal and then Segal "the blogger" wholeheartedly endorsed Zinkin (also in these pages). Either someone did not get the memo, or, they don't think we are paying attention, or, there is political chicanery of the highest order at play.

I wonder which it is.

Richard J. Tracy Sr., Oro Valley


Victorian Cowgirl said...

Regarding Dankwerth's letter..

HIS WORDS: "Over the past five years, the Kais have requested general plan amendments to change the zoning from low density residential to high density residential and commercial. These requests were all turned down..."

MY RESPONSE: If a person has requested something repeatedly over a 5-year period, then it's something that he wants very badly. The makeup of the council changed during that 5-year period, but still he was turned down. So all he has to do is wait it out until the majority of the council is made up of a group of people who will finally vote in his favor.

It appears that Hiremath-Snider-Hornat-Waters is the group he's been looking for, hence, the signs on his property to help get them elected.

HIS WORDS: "Changing an existing zoning designation of this type requires passage of a major amendment. Two-thirds or five town council members must approve it."

This implies that even if Hiremath-Snider-Waters-Hornat were on the council, their 4 votes would still not be enough to pass the motion.

OK. What happens if the motion comes up on a night when one council member is absent. Let's say Bill Garner is absent. Now in order to get a 2/3 majority, you would need 4 of the 6 council members to pass the motion.

That's right. Four. Hiremath-Snider-Waters-Hornat. Motion passes.

HIS WORDS: "The 'process' prevents a change from being 'rammed' through by a few."

MY RESPONSE: Tell that to Dave Andrews.

The Zee Man said...

As we have noted, our postings on the nature of potential "deals" that Hiremath may have made to secure the endorsements he has, are, as we've noted, educated "surmises" on our part.

To us, they are logical conclusions based on the: "If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck; it must be a duck." philosophy.

We are merely connecting the dots, so to speak, based on our knowledge of what has transpired in Oro Valley in past years. We know, for example, what people have tried to do to turn Oro Valley's zoning rules to their advantage.

We have "long memories" because we've been here a long time. And we know human nature. Our educated "surmizes" are quite reasonable given our knowledge of history and the people involved in it.

So, we figure, for example that a person who supports Hiremath; a person who has repeatedly sought to alter our General Plan over the years, probably has some motive for supporting Hiremath; as in, the individual feels he has a better shot at getting the General Plan altered in his favor with Hiremath as Mayor than with Mike Zinkin as Mayor.

This makes logical sense to us because there is absolutely no other reason for anyone in their right mind to support a candidate who has absolutely no qualifications to be Mayor of Oro Valley. And Hiremath has absolutely no qualifications to be our Mayor.

Given this, wouldn't you too think that Hiremath's endorsers are looking for something from him in return? Of course they are. This conclusion is a no-brainer. To believe otherwise is to deny human nature, history and the specific people involved.

Turn a blind eye to reality, if you want. Go ahead. Conclude that Hiremath's endorsers are supporting him with, collectively, tens of thousands of dollars simply because they are selfless, and want only what is best for the residents of Oro Valley.

Us? We ain't that naive.

We ain't drinkin' the Hiremath Kool-Aid.


Victorian Cowgirl said...

Zee Man,

That was your best post ever!

Nombe Watanabe said...

Go Trolls.

Victorian Cowgirl said...

Regarding Dankwerth's letter, it should also be pointed out that the 2/3 majority needed for a major amendment could also easily be accomplished even if all 7 council members are present for a vote.


If Hiremath-Waters-Hornat all get elected next week, their first order of business will be to appoint a council member to fill Salette's vacant seat. They've already indicated that they and Snider are all on the same team which means they will appoint a 5th person to join THEIR team so they will have their majority vote on everything they want to pass.

Say goodbye to the beautiful rolling hills and desert landscape and endless views that you currently enjoy as you drive by the area of First and Tangerine.

artmarth said...

Cowgirl--- We can only hope the voters of Oro Valley have read your words.

There is no doubt that Hiremath, Hornat & Waters are a coalition and exactly of the same mindset as Snider.

If that's what the voters want, so be it.

Anyone that realizes the point you made should understand the ONLY option is to elect Mike Zinkin & Matt Rabb.

What we probably need is a latter day Paul Revere going through all of Oro Valley and screaming out---
"The election is in your hands. Do what's best for you!"

Victorian Cowgirl said...

Dankwerth also speaks of "political chicanery." This begs two questions:

(1) Was it not political chicanery when Hiremath stated both verbally and in writing that he was the only candidate who is against a property tax?

(2) Is it not political chicanery for the Explorer to continue printing letters about Zinkin's inadvertent use of the town logo (this is OLD news at this point and Zinkin has already explained what happened and has apologized for it), meanwhile, they neglect to print the NEW story about KC Carter being caught on audiotape stating...

"I'm gonna help that dentist get elected and I'm gonna be his aide. Now don't repeat that. In other words, I'll come to your meetings...I'll take the daytime stuff. He's agreed to this if we get him in there."

If Carter had said these exact same words in reference to Mike Zinkin, it would have been a HUGE story. But a "smoking gun" emerges in the Hiremath campaign and the smoking gun is simply cleaned and placed back inside the cabinet.

Zev Cywan said...

VC, et al,
I believe, too, that the Explorer has a 'tilt' towards Candidate Hiremath, however, one should realize that such would be the case having read their
official 'endorsement' article.

As to Carter, yes, we all heard what CARTER 'came out with' on tape, however, having observed him a little over a week ago at a Council meeting, ashen and appearing to be 'wasting away', does anyone truly believe that any kind of a real 'offer' was made in the context that was espoused by him in this recording? Quite frankly, I doubt it. I've spoken to Candidate Hiremath twice; once was a superficial conversation lasting about a minute at a Council meeting where Mike Zinkin introduced us, the other was just a quick 'hello', again at a Council meeting while I was having a conversation with Mike and Matt on a bench outside Chambers; so, understand that I have no clandestine information relative to what Hiremath might be thinking in a reality sense.Having read his mailers/ads, having listened to his slick political pandering, bloviating, or whatever, I find it hard to believe that a man of Hiremath's intelligence would concretely affirm a type of 'quid pro quo' to a person of Carter's current capabilities/state of mind. Yeah, he possibly COULD have 'used' him to get an introduction to Kai in order to get signs on the property, but offer him the job of some kind of assistant? C'mon!

artmarth said...

As I said previously, Carter may be many things, but I have never found him to lie.

On Franzi's radio show, Hiremath made it a point to say that he is the only candidate to Unequivocally be opposed to a property tax. (Mike Zinkin is adamantly against a property tax.)

Hiremath did NOT say he "UNEQUIVOCALLY" didn't offer anything to Carter. He only said, I can't speak for others. I can only speak for myself.

Hardly, an UNEQUIVOCAL statement, don't you think.

Don't be so sure Carter didn't speak the truth. We all know Hiremath will do whatever he deems necessary to win the election.

Zev Cywan said...

Art, whatever a conversation might have been, do you not think that Carter, given his state of mind, given his state of health, given a state of senses, possibly conveyed what he thought he might have understood - perhaps not a liar, but perhaps mistaken? I've heard the claim that many crime investigators perceive that some EYEWITNESSES make the WORST WITNESSES. Carter?

artmarth said...

I no longer have any reason to talk to Carter. Perhaps somebody that does, would like to ask him----were you telling the truth, were you hallucinating, were you stating truthfully what Dr. Hiremath said to you, without any misunderstanding, or misconstruing?

Victorian Cowgirl said...

Correction to my last post. The "political chicanery" statement was from Richard Tracy, not Alan Dankwerth.

Regarding Carter's statement, I'm on the fence about whether Hiremath made a deal with him or whether Carter is just hallucinating at this point and thinks an offer was made when it wasn't.

However, if Carter's health is as bad as it appears to be, perhaps Hiremath did make the offer just to get Carter's help, but also knowing that he'd never really have to follow through on the deal after the election.

But my point was that, whatever the case, it was STILL a news story and should have been reported in the Exlorer, then let the reader decide who's telling the truth.

Nombe Watanabe said...

VC, Prince Machiavelli would be proud. I my 30 odd years of service to a group of people with... let us say, flexible moral character, never, NEVER, have I head a fellow plotter state:

"if Carter's health is as bad as it appears to be, perhaps Hiremath did make the offer just to get Carter's help, but also knowing that he'd never really have to follow through on the deal after the election."

In other words," old KC is going to drop dead anyway so promise him anything to get some support"

Cold, and if I had a FAN BUTTON. You would be fanned.

N. Watanabe. Blogger Troll.


Nombe Watanabe said...

Correction Machiavelli was not a Prince -- NW

artmarth said...

Wanabe--- Of course Machiavelli was a prince, and if were around today, he would say to Satish:

"A prince must have the wisdom to recognize good advice from bad."

As we see it, Satish continues to seek advice from those that are concerned with themselves and are using Satish to seek their own goals.

Prince Machiavelli would also say: "Do not be so harsh on the "Cowgirl." She is a good woman, and don't misinterpret her words."

Nombe Watanabe said...

Pls. re-read. I fanned VC. She is a hero!
And, although Machiavelli was a PRINCE of a man.
He, indeed was NOT a Prince.

Niccolò di Bernardo dei Machiavelli (3 May 1469 – 21 June 1527) was an Italian philosopher/writer, and is considered one of the main founders of modern political science. He was a diplomat, political philosopher, musician, and a playwright, but foremost, he was a civil servant of the Florentine Republic.

Long live the Florentine Republic.


artmarth said...

Hey Wanabe--- Good grief!
Here I thought you "dissed" her.

I'll have to read more carefully, or at the very least, learn to differentiate from being "fanned" to being "dissed."

I should have known better than to question you. After all, time and time again, you prove yourself to be a "prince."

Not really a prince, but a diplomat, political philosopher, and foremost,a civil servant.

Thanks for the correction.