Tuesday, March 30, 2010

Goldwater Institute On AZ Education Woes

In light of the controversy on the 1% proposed sales tax hike to help support Az education, we thought our readers might want to read this Goldwater Institute report on Az education woes.


http://www.goldwaterinstitute.org/article/4571

19 comments:

Jay D said...

We could fight all day about who values education...I would suggest that rather than posting information from this conservative think tank, anyone of you who questions dollars spent on education or the sad state of education in Arizona talk to people who matter...teachers, students, parents, etc. Do your homework, then make informed comments.

artmarth said...

Jay D--- May I suggest you pay more attention to the message, than the messenger.

Are you suggesting the report from the prestigious Goldwater Institute is not factual?

Leopold B. Stoch said...

I'm with Artmarth - public education is a total waste of money. No tax dollars should go to schools. Heck - there should be NO TAXES! Why have taxes at all!? All the schools teach is "science" and evolution - which everyone knows is total BS. Education is the sole responsibility of parents - as God Himself intended. That's in the bible. READ IT. Why should I pay to educate YOUR kid?

And there are WAY TOO many police in this world. We should arm the citizens and let them self enforce the laws of the people. If you steal bread - expect to be shot. If you murder someone - no jail time - someone can just shoot you. Problem solved. Really - how hard is that?

Cars just pollute the earth - so forget transportation funding - people need to use animals for transportation. Ever heard of a horse?

Government is too big!

There is no reason for us to pay taxes ever, at all, for anything!

Its my money. Mine mine mine. Not yours. I earned it. Hands off Government!

artmarth said...

Leopold---Do me a big favor, and don't agree with me on anything.

John Martin said...

NAEP results are a solid benchmark to measure performance.

However, I must say that Arizona already has pretty expansive charter/alternative school policies, already grades schools based on achievement, and already most districts allow some form of open-enrollment (parental choice). Something else, not just the intransigence of teachers' and school board unions, must go further in explaining the poor performance of Arizona's students.

Ladner is a qualified education expert, and he does have interesting ideas, especially when it comes to tackling the issues of our earliest learners (K-3). However, maybe it's just the nature of this "daily update," but I think he gives short shrift to bigger underlying problems and lets state lawmakers off the hook a little too easily.

Jay D said...

No Art, I am not suggesting one way or the other that the Goldwater Institute is factual or not...I am suggesting that your readers have very strong opinions about education, but I have to wonder how many of them are involved in the schools in some way...whether they work there, volunteer there, have children or grandchildren attending local public schools, or just bother to take the time to talk to educators and find out what's really going on. Reading information from a conservative organization like the Goldwater Institute is fine. But it's more important to go to the source!

Leopold B. Stoch said...

Jay D - What Artmarth is saying is that schools are a total waste of tax money and Goldwater is just pointing out that FACT. Why should we pay to educate your kid? I don't need to do my homework because Goldwater has done it for me. These are the facts. Arizona's schools make kids stupider. The Goldwater people wouldn't be able to post their reports online if they were not reputable and based on FACTS. Besides - it's the GOLDWATER institute - sound familiar? - that is US Senator Barry Goldwater - one of the last true Americans to fight for liberty, justice and equal rights for gays and abortion. He also had a thing for Kachina dolls and UFOs. A coincidence? I think not.

artmarth said...

In continuing this dialog, I will say this:

Jay D--- I'm more apt to accept your last comment, than your first.

Leopold-- I'm not sure if you're serious, or trying to put us all on.

Your statement---"What Artmarth is saying is that schools are a total waste of tax money and Goldwater is just pointing out that FACT," leads me to believe you don't bother to comprehend what is being said.

I did a posting in the interest of enlightening our readers to what Dr. Ladner of the Goldwater Institute had to say concerning Az education.

A 2nd request to you.

1) Don't agree with me and also
2) Don't attribute statements to me that I didn't make.

OVDad said...

Dear Mr. Stoch, you are a genius.

Now to the issue: When a professor at UA releases a statement, it is a statement from that professor and not from UA. While published under the helm of the Goldwater Institute, Ladner's views don't automatically correspond to the Goldwater Institute. Accuse me of nit-picking and that's fine. Many times on this blog I have seen this kind of thing: By not saying "Matthew Ladner on AZ Education", which would be the right thing to do, LOVE chooses to use the Goldwater Institute.

Second, doubt your sources. The GI isn't highly reputable in academic circles. I would say the same thing if this was a liberal institute. In regards to Ladner's posting, his graph is misleading. It compares bananas with apples to prove a point he has made a career out of trying to prove. Graphs like this just don't hold up to academic standards.

Third, can you please already make this an opinion blog? Please stop pretending you inform voters and citizens.

Leopold B. Stotch said...

I did not mean to offend you, Artmarth. I love your blog. I was agreeing with the point you are making. You clearly posted this to show Arizona schools are not doing well compared to other states. And you, Sir, are correct. Why would you attack me for agreeing with you?

If you don't want people to agree with you, then why post the Goldwater report? It's not like you posted the Obama Institutes study on Socialist Education progress in Blue States to show dramatic gains in sates like New York, California, or Michigan.

And don't listen to people who claim The Goldwater Institute is biased. The GI Institute's President and CEO, Darcy Olsen goes on Fox News shows like the O'Reilly Factor and Dennis Miller Show. That PROVES she seeks out unbiased venues to talk about the Institute's work. Fox News is the only fair and balanced news organization left in the United Sates.

Artmarth - based on your posting and comments, we agree on much - though not everything. More like 98% or 99%.

OV Dad, Jay D, John Martin and all you pro-government liberal socialist - its really simple - why would we impose a tax to increase funding for schools that don't teach kids anything meaningful? Evolution, gay rights, the complete stripping the role of religion in our government from the curriculum... OUR government was established by CHRISTIANS. Jesus, I could go on. But I won't.

Money won't fix these Obama-indoctrinating schools - they should all be closed down! That is what parents are for - stay home and educate your OWN kids. They're not MY problem.

Chuck Davis said...

Education can be great and Oro Valley is the new recipient of one of the best schools in the nation-- BASIS.
Interestingly, they offer all employees a one year contract and incentive based pay.

People will perform if offered an incentive to do so. This is true for most fields of endeavor and a means to help clean up the mess called education.

OVDad said...

Mr. Davis,
What works for BASIS has little meaning for public, non-charter education. Both the students and the teachers at charter schools represent a completely different sample. Also, how do you measure success in education? America's obsession with test scores has done our education system more bad than good.

John Martin said...

Leopold, are you serious?!

You write: "OV Dad, Jay D, John Martin and all you pro-government liberal socialist - its really simple - why would we impose a tax to increase funding for schools that don't teach kids anything meaningful? Evolution, gay rights, the complete stripping the role of religion in our government from the curriculum... OUR government was established by CHRISTIANS. Jesus, I could go on. But I won't."

...Or are you just being sarcastic? If so, then you lay it on a bit thick.

Nombe Watanabe said...

My father's "Soldiers Handbook" dated 1942, contains timeless wisdom. One great line states "Irony is lost on Enlisted men." Well, I guess my years of Enlisted service must be catching up with me. The irony, sarcasm, burlesque and satire contained in some of the above posts rival my own humble attempts at caustic humor.

Fist Freiherr Leopold von und zu Stoch hit a homerun with his "faux" (pronounced FOX) support of Art and the Goldwater Institute.

Next, engaging in staggering self parody, Herr Stoch claimed Fox news is fair and balanced, then goes on to top himself, which is hard to do, by alluding to "Gay Rights, Evolution and the second most discredited religion on the face of the Earth, Christianity".

OV Dad said it best. "Stoch, you are a genius"

The only trouble THIS former Enlisted man has is determining if he is an evil genius or a comic genius.


Nombe.

Leopold B. Stotch said...

I prefer evil genius. There is no money in being a comedic genius.

But, you don't have to be a genius to know that the LOVE blog is the place where good ideas come to be born into great ideas.

artmarth said...

To Our Readers--- I'm almost inclined to remove this whole posting and comments, but would rather say unequivocally;

"I completely disassociate myself and this blog from the comments made by "Leopold" and those that agree with him."

I stand by the fact that we did this posting from the Goldwater Institute for only the purpose of allowing our readers to read something they may have otherwise not had the opportunity to read, as it pertains to the prior post on Az education and the upcoming vote.

We did NOT opine on the merits of Dr. Ladner's article.

Further more, "OVDad" once again distorts and misinterprets our point. Most of our readers are aware of the Goldwater Institute. In due respect to Dr. Ladner, had we changed our posting with his name, most readers would not know to whom we were referring.

We do support some of the views of the Institute, and do not support others.

In the interest of full disclosure, it was the Goldwater Institute that supported me and this blog on what was considered a "free speech issue."

For anyone interested in that issue, it is at the bottom of the left column of the blog.

Hoping we can move on----.

Victorian Cowgirl said...

I've already stated on another thread that one problem with always asking taxpayers for more money for schools is that more money won't solve the problem for kids who come from bad families who couldn't care less about their child's education.

Another issue is that it doesn't matter how much you spend, what matters is what is being taught. Look at what just happened in Texas.

Conservatives on the Texas Board of Education decided to remove Thomas Jefferson from their textbooks and replace him with Thomas Aquinas and John Calvin. They are clearly choosing to advocate religious teachings over the teachings of great political thinkers. They are also removing all references to "separation of church and state." They are removing the word "democratic" in references to our form of government and replacing it with "republic."

There is more but I'll leave it at that.

So if schools are going to start promoting creationism over science and religion over independent thinking, does anyone really think that this is going to produce an intellectual society?

I, for one, do not want my tax dollars used in this manner!

Leopold B. Stotch said...

Amen Victoria Cowgirl - you and I should join forces against evil.

NO public funding for schools!

Kathy Pastryk said...

The Goldwater Institute compared 4th and 8th graders' test scores in FL and in AZ. The superiority of the FL test scores supposedly says something about the inferiority of education in AZ, but the reasons behind the scores may have little to do with the teachers or the schools. Comparing Hispanic students in both states is a lot like comparing bananas and papayas. Hispanics come from a Spanish-speaking family, but Hispanic students in FL are mostly Cuban, and in AZ they are mostly Mexican. There are considerable socio-economic differences between the two groups. There are differences in how they approach and value education. I could go on, but you get the idea. In comparing different groups in the NY-NJ area we saw similar contrasts.