We appreciate the fact that Council Member Salette Latas took the time to comment, and offered Jerene Watson, our Assistant Town Manager's explanation as to how this stimulus package came to be.
There is certainly no argument that the request came from Gabrielle Gifford's office on Dec. 17, and the "wish list" needed to be addressed in a very short time-frame.
That in itself raises the question: "Why would something of such importance that required a list from our government for a stimulus package with a value of tens of millions of dollars, have only "sixteen waking hours" to respond?"
We believe the more important issue is this: "Is our town government run by "staff" or our seven elected officials?" The answer should be the latter, but in this case, our readers can be assured that the members of council (supposedly other than the mayor) had no input into the priory list, and furthermore, regardless of what "boobie-baby" our mysterious blogger may say, these individuals did not find out the particulars until the information was forwarded on to Ms. Gifford's office.
We reiterate the fact that it was totally presumptuous to rename the Naranja Park as "The Naranja Recreational and Cultural Complex," and request $150M in funds when the voters turned down a $48.6 bond issue. To speculate that the citizens would rather spend $150M of potential government money (it won't happen!) rather than repair our roads and make sure we have enough water, was more than indiscriminate.
We would pose this question: What would you consider "pork barrel,"
1) A Municipal Operations Center
2) An historically facility (Steam Pump Ranch),
3) A Park (Naranja Park)
4) An additional upgraded phone system (Town Hall)
or road repair and water concerns in a desert environment?
Well, Oro Valley's priority list didn't get to road & water concerns until they took care of the "pork barrel" items 1-4.
Whether you call them "earmarks," entitlements" or "pork barrel, that makes no sense whatsoever!
Perhaps the town staff should have asked Senator McCain to help with the priority list. After all, he knows an "earmark" when he sees one.
27 comments:
As I have made several prior comments relative to this subject I would like to add or emphasize the following:
1) I was at the Council meeting that had as an agenda item [that the Town either hire a lobbyist or make personal efforts to obtain federal money for the purpose of furthering projects "SUCH AS" the Naranja Town Site, the Municipal Operations Center, and Steam Pump Ranch]. A presentation was made by the Assistant Town Manager, Jerene Watson, who, I believe, stated she had been a lobbyist in Washington for 7 years and who then proceeded to attempt to justify the pursuits of 'earmarks'. I personally then made a statement to the Council relative to the financial state of the economy and, that, in addition, that We the People had voted down the Naranja Park issue for a VARIETY of reasons. Several of the Council followed up with statements of their own concurring with my 'observations', and by specifically naming me in their followup remarks. It was then voted NOT to allow for the hiring of a Town lobbyist but for the Town to pursue, on their own, means of raising money for [needed] purposes.
2) At the following Council meeting
Ms. Jerene Watson got up to report that she had made contact with Ms. Gabrielle Giffords and was told she had 16 hours (or so) to prepare the 'list'. She followed up by stating that she would have a list to Ms. Giffords by morning. ABSOLUTELY NO PRESENTATION WAS MADE AS TO WHAT THOSE REQUEST ITEMS WOULD BE; HER STATEMENT WAS NOT AN AGENDA ITEM and seemed not to be an 'item' up for discussion.
3)In the commentary by Salette Latas, made earlier and referred to by the Blog writer who initiated this stream, it was stated that (and I am not attributing this 'assessment' to Ms. Latas) that THE list was for items that were "project ready". How can an item that was presented as an initiative and subsequently VOTED DOWN BY THE TOWNSPEOPLE be considered to be "project ready"?
Yes, it most probably is still an still an issue, but one NOT "PROJECT READY" BECAUSE OF THAT 'NO' VOTE and, to reiterate, it was not voted down just because of the money factor.
It seems rather obvious that, once again, decisions are being made without due process which should be by 'consent of the voters', and in this instance truly CONTRARY to the 'consent' of the voters. Once again, I would like to remind the Town that they serve at the pleasure of the constituency, they are NOT a select group of elitist philosopher kings who were 'named' to subjugate us to their wants versus ours.
Zev,
Please, don't mistake my opinion on "project readiness" with supporting or not support the park, but there are plans and cost estimates that have been completed on Naranja Park site. I would consider it “project ready” compared to other ideas that have had no planning and are only a pipe dream.
AND, by the way, as my blog name implies, I’m not the biggest fan of any of these “bailout” concepts to include the Obama plan now on the table. (The $850 B Wall Street financial bank bailout is the same as bailing out a flooding boat with a bucket full of holes).
Obama has said he will not allow any pork to be added, but isn’t this just one big, BIG pork plan that is earmarked by the incoming Presidential administration instead of Congressional members pumping up their own local districts? Good for the political short haul, but the long run of a $12 Trillion national debt will destroy our county.
The current projection is a trillion dollar deficit, per year for the next four years and a project debt of $20 TRILLION dollar nation debt by 2019. . The interest payment alone on that debt will be over a trillion, twice the defense budget and a third of the total current federal budget!
If my math is correct, that means every American citizen, no matter their age, will owe about $70,000 each! A family of four will owe almost a quarter million dollars to those who own that debt (counties like China, Saudia Arabia, etc). I think we can do with out the hundreds of “Naranja Park Projects” across the county in order to save my kids and grandchildren the burden of our careless spending.
Stop pumping money over seas. Free trade is not Fair trade and benefits counties that will exploit their citizens. NAFTA needs to be terminated. Our monetary system needs major reforming, i.e., the Federal Reserve. Just a few things we really need to do, Naranja park is not one of them.
end the handouts, believe me I am well aware of your (and my) concerns relative to tossing money around like confetti from whomever and for whoever it might benefit. We are strongly together on this subject! My point on deeming the 'park' as not being worthy of being included in a 'project ready' package was that it is a project that was voted down for a VARIETY OF REASONS and that, in my opinion, NEW approaches MUST be
explored in order to create a palatable entity for consideration. Many I have spoken with have been adamant that including a huge sports complex is not in keeping with the multi opportunities that can be afforded here. In addition to all the ball fields and tennis courts, a swim center was included, a BMX run was included, tether ball courts were in the spectrum, in short, just about any 'sport' you can think of was deemed as necessary, several of which attract very few participants. The concept was even overbalanced towards base/soft ball rather than soccer which has more participants than those 'other' ball games. As to the arts, performing, visual, etc.,the park was to be loaded with a bandstand, a high-tech auditorium, and so forth. I have experienced MANY venues which have been carefully and beautifully blended into the natural terrain surrounding them. I ask, what happened to the concept of meandering natural open spaces which could include SOME of this but could delegate other facets to already existing facilities - existing parks, schools, etc.; upgrading those entities would be a hell of a lot cheaper than erecting this grandiose, out of place, monument. This 'park' was 'created' by consultants and influenced by other venues that were in place in other areas much UNLIKE Oro Valley. It was also 'emphasized' that input was gathered from many in Oro Valley. Well, I've been at meetings where many of the advocates DID NOT LIVE IN ORO VALLY; is that what THEY counted?
In short, eth, I believe that this park is not 'project ready' because the public VOTED that, in it's existing format, it was WRONG.
It didn't need to be designed by a bunch of techies; it doesn't need to reflect the mindset of a downtown 'multiplex'.
Oh, and yes, it doesn't need to be financed by a country that is going broke.
I wonder if the folks in Oro Valley that put forth this $150M "Recreational & Cultural Complex" gave any thought if our federal government was also going to pay the annual Maintenance & Operating Costs.
Keep in mind, the original plan at $48.6M had an estimate of $1.2M annually.
I guess there was no reason for anyone to think too far in advance and worry about future fiscal concerns!
Wow, has this thread (and the previous one) started to go astray.
We moved from infrastructure projects to socialism to lobbying to the national economic picture.
Fortunately for the Town, many of the most important road projects have been completed in the last 10 years (at least those under the Town's control, so that leaves out Oracle Road). What's left is the need to improve and expand the water delivery system so that we don't have to keep digging deeper for groundwater. I would hope that everyone would agree that federal funding in that area would be helpful.
I still believe that, the vote on the Town Site notwithstanding, that an offer of federal funds to get the ballfields built is worth considering.
The national "bailout" package will not spell the end of this country; whether we like it or not, China and Brazil and India and other developing countries will keep buying our bonds. So, it's important that we be realistic about any offer of funds coming from Washington. As I stated before, Oro Valley should not get one penny more that it deserves but not one penny less.
If funding comes to the Town and it produces well-paying construction jobs for people who will then turn around and spend their salaries locally, what's the downside?
As for me, I'd take baseball, softball and soccer fields any way I could get them. And, if that means standing in line for Congress to send some money our way, I'd be happy to be in that line.
BB-
The thread has not gone astray. "We moved from infrastructure projects [Naranja Park]to socialism to lobbying to the national economic picture" because those concepts are all connected to each other and, in the end, to Oro Valley and the Naranja Park.
We are a microcosm of the national picture.
Can you say HYPERINFLATION?
1926 GERMANY = Hitler.
2012 USA = ???
B-b, your comment is self -serving and unrealistic. I would think that someone with your 'credentials' would understand what in the hell is going on in the world today and, in turn, the lifestyle problems of our country. This thread has not gone astray; perhaps you have. Tell the nation that oh, we have 2/12 million people unemployed, but Oro Valley needs federal funds for a playground. Tell the nation that oh, we don't know how were going to live up to the promises of Medicare and Social Security, but Oro Valley needs funds for a playground. Tell the country that oh, we know that there are eventually going to be around 10 million housing foreclosures, but Oro Valley needs funds for a playground. Yes, b-b, tell the country all that you profess to know about international economics, that the Chinese will continue to make toys for us,
that dependable India, China , and Brazil will continue to buy our bonds (bonds are not guaranteed in a bankruptcy proceeding), that we will continue to be a high and mighty country even though our multi-trillion dollar debt has no end in sight.
It appears to me that your last statement, "I'd take baseball, softball, and soccer fields any way I could get them" says a lot about you - absolutely selfish and without real intellectual or social merit.
B-b, I do have quite a few relatives and acquaintances in certain D.C. 'circles' and I am not alone in my thinking that your positions and your visions are quite simpleminded. VC is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT in her assessment that virtually ALL of the facets of this stream are truly interconnected!
So let's see: I've been called "selfish," "self-serving," "unrealistic," "simple-minded" and "without intellectual merit." So much for polite conversation.
Of course I realize that all of these issues are interrelated. In fact, I've taught university courses on exactly that interplay.
However, this is the LET ORO VALLEY EXCEL blog, so my focus was on the local, not the national or international. Go to politico.com (or similar sites)if you want to weigh in on those issues.
Regardless of what one thinks about the infrastructure improvement programs and the philosophy behind them, the truth is that there will be funds available to upgrade our water, sewer, parks and street systems. Is the Town going to stand on principle--as Zev suggests--and refuse funding because the increased national debt will destroy our country?
Past OV surveys have indicated that the residents of the community DO want more ballfields. And, not surprisingly, these same surveys showed that they didn't want to pay for them. However, if the feds are willing to send money in our direction so that we can add soccer and baseball fields IN ADDITION TO infrastructure and "green" development, should we refuse the money?
Hi boobie,
Say I win a million dollar house, well it sounds good but can I afford to keep up that million dollar house?
hmmm, probably not!
I don't agree with the government spending all this money right now when we are bordering on a depression
I don't think we can blame the town or officials for submitting a "wish List"
Town council and officials did not make the decision to spend the mnoney the federal government did
So I think as long as the governent is "giving" away our money we might as well get in line
Sorry my thoughts are not as sophisticated as some on here but
I am blessed with common sense :>)
Thanks, Ms. Coyote. At least we're in agreement here.
If my wording offends you, b-b, so be it. I do not see how you can espouse what you do and in the manner you do it and then take offense at a reasonable analysis; your post was all about ME, ME, ME (YOU) and while you feel the YOU can be sarcastic towards others and THEIR assessments why can't WE act in kind? Your conversations have not been so very polite in the past nor has your logic been a shining example of lucidity. I've given you credit when I felt personally that it was due; I will do the opposite when I personally feel that the opposite is the case.
BB-
If you understand that these issues are interrelated, then you must also understand why sometimes when discussing certain issues on this Oro Valley blog, that we sometimes need to "stray" or "interrelate" the local issue to what's transpiring on the national level.
I wish I still had this book so I could give you the exact quote, but Carl Sagan once wrote about how each species relies on another species for its survival and that humans are "tottering" at the top of that pile. So when species #23 becomes extinct, species #22 will soon follow, etc. And each time a species is removed from the pile, the pile weakens and begins to totter from side to side until it eventually falls down and crumbles.
And that's a great analogy for what is happening with our economy. One industry fails and every industry that relied on that industry for its survival will then fail, too.
We are all interconnected! Enter the economic stimulus package which is what this thread is about...Oro Valley's Stimulus Request.
If I were a philanthropist and I had a choice between giving a million dollars to a wealthy town to help them build some ball fields or giving a million dollars to an inner-city school with a high drop-out rate, to create programs to motivate those kids to want to stay in school, I'd give the money to the school because in the long run, that money will benefit not only those children, but society as a whole.
I, too, think it is "selfish" to ask the Federal Gov't. to give $150 million dollars to the people of Oro Valley for a park and some ball fields when that money could be much better spent helping children who are disadvantaged...hardly the type of child you will find in OV.
Case in point: I grew up disadvantaged! Do you know how I got where I am today? Through a Pell Grant, that's how. Yes, Senator Pell (D-RI) understood the importance of education and that it was the way out of poverty. I didn't get here because my town built some community sports complex.
You can read about Senator Pell at the link below:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/02/us/politics/02pell.html
Excellent commentary, VC, Pell Grants were specific and targeted a truly socio-economic need. In response to mscoyote's statement relative to 'we might as well get in line' and for you, too, b-b, unabashedly grabbing at 'free' money historically has a horrible cost - loss of individual freedom. Is 'free' really 'free'? I don't think so!
Zev,
Of course I know that the "free" money is not free, I was being a tad sarcastic!!
My point was that as long as the federal government has already somehow decided that they were going to have this program we may as well try for it, why not?
I did not say that I agree with the program or the request for $$ for the park.
Also do we have any additional info about what the guidlines were for request
Yes I do agree that asking for money for a park is not the best use of taxpayer money
Think somebody already mentioned that chances of approval on that request are slim to nothing
No there is no free lunch worth having :)
Sorry, I did misread that a bit mscoyote, there just are so many persons out there trying to get their hands on some of the what-is-becoming valueless 'money' the government is printing; perhaps we should start our own press in OV. Frankly, the Town of Oro Valley's attempt to get in on the 'windfall (?)' makes me sick. We have overstepped our capacities with due warning and now this Town still wants more. While other Municipalities are making heavy cuts in budgets and PERSONNEL, we just keep on rockin' with a host of pie-in-the-sky dreams. We just don't seem to get it that once (if) we come out of this depression, every other City in this country has PLENTY more to offer businesses and people than we do - INFRASTRUCTURE AND HOUSING ALREADY IN PLACE; WE ARE NOT EDEN!
At the risk of more ad hominem attacks on me for reasons I can't fathom, I'd like to politely point out that there are infrastructure needs in the Town that could very well be funded by outside sources.
Without a method to deliver CAP water (to which the Town is entitled), OV will never receive its fair share. Therefore, more money would have to be spent (and water rates raised) to dig deeper wells to tap the depleting groundwater.
The La Cholla/Overton intersection is a mess whenever it rains. Although its reconstruction is on the RTA list, wouldn't it be better to get it done sooner rather than later?
Magee between Northern and Oracle also needs attention; the whole Oro Valley Country Club area has frequent flooding.
Yes, we could stand on principle and not accept a dime to help to deal with these needs. Or we could participate in putting people back to work and deal with these issues now. You already know where I stand on this issue. And it's not about ME, it's about all of us.
b-b, you will not get any 'attacks' from me on THOSE items you just mentioned although I still feel that it has been our own State, County, and local governments that have failed to properly address these issues and who have gone for the more 'flamboyant', consultant costly projects. Much money has been wasted on study after study after study as well as on other government outlays I wont mention. No, you won't get any argument from me that these items are in bad need of attention and I am happy to recognize your concerns for them.
As to the whys of the so-called "ad hominem attacks" [for reasons you can't fathom], please, do yourself a favor and really think deeply about it. In this time of difficulty, I will begrudge not the needy, but I will begrudge
those who additionally want more toys. I just cannot accept the latter!
May I remind boobie-baby what I said in the original post?
Quoting---"Well, Oro Valley's priority list didn't get to road & water concerns until they took care of the "pork barrel" items 1-4."
Items 1-4, in case anyone forgot---
1) A Municipal Operations Center
2) An historically facility (Steam Pump Ranch),
3) A Park (Naranja Park)
4) An additional upgraded phone system (Town Hall)
Perhaps we can all agree, the issue is not looking for some federal government stimulus money. The issue is the priority list that was turned in, could be considered, to use the vernacular, "ass-backwards!"
Point well made, Art. Thank you for returning us to where the discussion started.
I just inadvertently heard a 'report' on the radio by an 'irate' talk-show host who's subject was, in fact, a commentary about and a minute portion of a list of some of the "shovel ready" projects that have been submitted under the guise of the 'economic stimulus package'. First, he stated that literally thousands of 'projects' were submitted by a plethora of communities across the nation. He was aghast, as was I, at the gall as to how much of the list was unnecessary, self-serving and muddled drivel. Though not named, the top of Oro Valley's list was right up there with the most inane.
Now, while I do agree with the point that Art just made, don't smile b-b that it has been affirmed that the stream didn't follow appropriately from the original post - it did, I did, and so did virtually every other comment. As Victorian Cowgirl tried to emphasize, it's ALL interelated.
BB-
You mentioned areas that need road improvements, then said, "we could participate in putting people back to work and deal with these issues now."
My issue with this is that the only people we keep "putting back to work" with all these stimulus packages and developer subsidies (that we're discussing on another post) is people who work in construction.
I was in Sedona around Christmas. The B&B where we always stay is always booked solid. Every room is full. This time, half of the rooms were empty. The owner told us that the Hilton down the street from them was operating at only 10% capacity! He wanted to know where the bail-out or stimulus package was for the hotel industry. He had to lay off some of his staff for the first time in history.
Meanwhile, the main road through Sedona was torn up for road construction (road widening and the installation of rotaries) from end to end. There's always money for construction projects it seems.
I get a little tired of how money is always funneled to the construction industry but if you work in any other industry, well, tough luck.
This country was built on the desire for INDIVIDUALS to innovate, expand, and hire people to help them do this. Now, in a relatively short period of time, there seems to be a mentality that if the feds toss out a bunch of worthless dollars in order to 'create' millions of 'shovel' jobs, then we're going to get back to being a happy and prosperous nation. Does this make sense to anyone? Mike the engineer becomes Joe the plumber. Phillipe the chef becomes Al the ditch digger. Morry the banker becomes Sam the weed puller. No, the 'economic stimulus package' will make us a nation of slaves - no private sector jobs, low paying menial labor, do as your told and eat gruel for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.
EXCEPT FOR ORO VALLEY - WE CAN ALL GO TO THE 'PARK' AND PLAY BASEBALL.
And by the way, have you all noticed how the word "green" creeps into so many of the 'justifications'. Perhaps I just don't get how the politicians can talk 'green' while the bulldozers, with their blessings, are at work ruining what we do have. Gabby?
Zev,
You should turn your last post into a letter to the editor. I think you have just seen into the future...where educated white collar workers are no longer needed and "green" means bulldozing the trees and replacing them with "green" certified buildings.
Kind of like how they installed metal sculptures of saquaro cactus on Tangerine Road to remind us of what used to be there!
Now perhaps they can find a way for the metal cactus to produce some metal fruit for the metal wildlife to eat.
So what's wrong with metal, VC, don't robots eat it?
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