Read this linked article in the Explorer to find out why all but Mayor Loomis and Vice Mayor Kunisch thought it wise to cut the $27,500 Oro Valley "contribution".
As far as we're concerned, it was a "no-brainer." Perhaps Mr. Gaanderse will make it a point to keep the NPCCC out of Oro Valley politics so they won't see fit to endorse the likes of Kunisch, past council member, Terry Parish, and Don Cox, who never won an election.
Isn't great that rest of the council will not be intimidated into making decisions?
Dave Perry, Explorer editor and publisher believes that the NPCCC deserves this funding. Click here to read his point of view.
41 comments:
Maybe it is time for OV to provide its own visitor information.
I don't want my money spent on the furthering the agenda of the Chamber of Commerce especially when it deals with issues affecting my bank account, such as the bond issue for the park.
Dave Perry is a newcomer to Oro Valley. He seems to weight on the side of development on every issue he opines upon.
He lacks knowledge of the town's history and why the burden on Oro Valley Taxpayers is already too much.
I love it when the Chamber says, [oh, but this is for (or from) a different fund]. So, they divide their money pool and then claim
one thing has nothing to do with the other. Baloney! This is almost like a developer who gets 10 employees to give $390 each to a candidate and then the claim is made that the developer didn't give $3900 - new math?
Hey Zev--- That's like Vice Mayor Al Kunisch announcing from the dais at the last council meeting that Oro Valley really isn't paying anything to reconfigure the El Con CC golf course.
Kunisch noted that the town wouldn't have to dip into its general fund to pay for the reconstruction. The money will come from state's highway user revenue fund.
Fortunately, Bill Garner set the record straight by saying that "indirectly, we are paying for it as taxpayers," and that the money could have been used for other needed road projects.
More "new math" from the vice mayor!
Yes, Art, same old, same old!
Let's see...
Salette Latas applied for the Chamber endorsement and didn't get it. Bill Garner applied for the Chamber endorsement and didn't get it. Barry Gillaspie applied for the Chamber endorsement and didn't get it.
All three voted against the Chamber funding.
That begs the following questions:
1. If their application had gotten the endorsement of the Chamber would have the funds been eliminated?
If the Chamber "was getting too political" why did all three apply for the endorsement?
Or did the Chamber get "too political" only after the three candidates didn't receive an endorsement?
Hmmmmmmmm...things to ponder.
Business, and especially small business, is the financial backbone of this community. Playing politics with the small amount paid to the Chamber for services requested by the Town was not good business, in my opinion.
We'll see how this one plays out.
Zee....
Hope you are enjoying the Cape!!!
What does the Chamber have to do with Dave Perry and development? Help me out here.
A cool 85 here today!!!
"The Thinker" negated to mention one other point concerning the interview process.
Why don't we let Mr. Cox tell our readers who does this job of interviewing and then making recommendations. That might be even more interesting.
I won't speak for the candidates, but suffice it to say, in my opinion, it was nothing more than a courtesy. Knowing the background of the interviewers & the history of the NPCCC, I'm quite sure these three never wanted nor expected any endorsement.
As to your question to the Zee Man concerning Dave Perry, I'm more than willing & able to help out Cox. Mr. Perry's editorial endorsed giving the NPCCC their "donation."
We linked to it on this posting. I totally endorse the Zee Man's comment.
I did not apply for chamber endorsement. The chamber asked me to come in for an interview, and I obliged.
Let's see now, AARP, a once advocate for the 'retired' has become, in itself, a multifaceted LUCRATIVE business. AAA, a once roadside assistance organization, has become, in itself, a multifaceted LUCRATIVE business. The Chambers of Commerce, a once advocacy group for independant businesses, in themselves, have become multifaceted LUCRATIVE businesses. As a former member of a few 'local chapters' it appears that all they ever wanted was my membership fees, etc. What did they ever do for me - NOTHING. As for lobbying, it seems that much of that seems to benefit and add to their own pocketbooks.
So, somebody please tell me, what has the Chamber done for Oro Valley? What has it done to benefit ME? Give me a good answer and at least my attitude towards them could be moderated a bit.
And, too, there are certain organizations which should NOT be political, outwardly biased, or pro or con any candidate whatsoever when it comes to LOCAL elections; the Chamber should emphatically be one of them. They stepped in their own 'cake'; let 'em eat it.
Art...
The interview team (all members of the Chamber Public Policy Committee)differs from one set of interviews to another however every attempt is made to keep the same group together for any particular political race. The questions are pre-set by the Chamber and not the interview committee (except for potential follow-up questions to clarify an answer) and all candidates are is asked the same questions. A numeric score (within a pre-set range) is given to each candidate for each response by each intervierer. The scores are tabulated by an individual not a member of the interview panel and each interviewer does not know how others scored the candidate. The results of the tally are then presented to the interview panel, discussed and a recommendation is made to the Chamber Board. The Chamber Board of Directors makes the final decision and before you ask, they do not always follow the recommendation of the committee.
I don't know if I am authorized to state the specific names of those interviewing the Oro Valley candidates and honestly I don't remember all of those in the room. Typically the Committee Chair is present but does not participate in the questioning. Usually there are 6 or 7 individuals interviewing. Frankly, it's not something that is of great importance to me and I don't make a concentrated effort to retain that information.
Maybe Salette can recall them all.
Salette....
Thanks for your response.
The most direct and unequivocal way of not seeking an endorsement is to respectfully decline the interview. It happens in most every political race including the Oro Valley Town Council races. If you wish to be not so blunt and alternative is to accept the invitation but make it clear at the beginning or end of the interview that you are not seeking the groups endorsement. This too happens from time to time.
Had the Chamber endorsed you I suspect that you would have been pleased and accepted it. I feel confident that the same would be true of Bill and Barry.
I believe most candidates, organizations, participants and voters look upon accepting an invitation for interview which may or may not result in an endorsement as applying for the endorsement. That is the context in which I used my original statement.
Thank you for your service to our community. I,unlike many others, understand and respect the time, energy and family sacrifice one commits to.
To All...
I want to make it perfectly clear that I am speaking personally and not on behalf of the NPCCC.
Don
You’re a stooge, Mr. Cox, if you think for one minute that there was no subjective bias in your decision to indorse your buddies, Terry Parrish and Helen Dankworth. You did the interview for not only the NPCCC, but also for the realtors! My opinion, you’re what makes the whole political world dip into the stench of special interest. It’s very clear that if you need help picking a candidate for office, choose the one opposite the Chamber of Commerce. Do I need to post the NPCCC record? Seems to be a trend here.
Cutting your organization out of public funding is an excellent start and shows us citizens that this current council is building an immunity to the leaches of our tax money. To bad we can’t get the Council to end the money pit GOVAC or ending the money stream set up by the previous Council to feed the Marriot.
Dear "endthehandout"--- Welcome as a new blogger. It is refreshing to get someone who sees things as they are, and says things that should be said.
Your astuteness is a welcome addition to our blog. Also thanks for the enlightening article you linked to on the Wal_Mart post comparing COSCO to what Vestar is bringing us.
Hope you see fit to continue offering your insight.
You mentioned the "money stream" to the Marriot. I believe you meant the Hilton---previously the Sheraton.
Sorry, my mistake.
I guess it would have been clearer if I would have said the CON-quistador.
Thinker,
I'd like to know more about this numeric scoring system. How does that work? Is it like this? If your answers are pro-development, pro-business, pro-growth, then you get a high score? If your answers are more pro-quality-of-life, then you get a lower score?
I ask this because for the 5 years I've lived here, every endorsement I've seen made by the Chamber of Commerce has been for the Republican candidate...unless I've missed an ad or two.
And who are the interviewers? Are they also all of a Republican bent?
It seems like there is a "subjective bias" as endthehandout suggested.
Mr. Cox,
Because this was my first run for elected office, I'm sure that people will forgive me for not knowing all your perceived nuances of when and how to accept or decline an offered endorsement.
I wanted to extend the chamber the courtesy of accepting their invitation, and I did.
Neither Salette Latas, nor Bill Garner, nor Barry Gillaspie received chamber endorsements.
They all won by landslides.
What does that say about chamber endorsements?
Hmmmmmmmm...things to ponder.
I'll respond in the order of your responses and hopefully I will cover all of the points raised. If not you know how to reach me. :-)
End the handout... I appreciate your comments.
There is no way an individual (me or you) can participate in one of these processes and completely lock out our personal biases. Everyone knows that. But the safety net is the number of people included in the process. When you have seven people interviewing it is impossible for one person to outweigh others.
Also one would hope that if your biases are so strong that you opt out of the process. I do that when appropriate and I can only hope that others do also.
As a new poster to this blog....or at least under this pseudonym.... :-),
there are a few points that you might want to consider. I would suggest that you correctly spell the names of the individuals you reference. It might be helpful to make accurate statements. The Chamber did not endorse Ms. Dankwerth and Art has already referenced your error on the proper name of the hotel chain. Lastly, you failed to mention that the Tucson Association of Realtors also endorsed Mr. Gillaspie. All of these suggestions are forwarded to add credibility to your comments.
VC...
I can only speak for myself and the answer to all of your initial questions is "No."
I have no clue what political affiliations others have on the interview committee. I do know that one of the interviewers is very anti-Wal Mart. Since the Oro Valley elections are SUPPOSED to be void of influence of political parties, the question is not asked.
Salette...
Somehow I feel confident that your exposure and participation in recent legislative elections, combined with your activity in the Pima County Democratic Party, provided you (and your political tutors) with sufficient education on the endorsement process. You ran an effective and knowledgeable campaign and it is difficult to imagine that the topic was never discussed. But I suppose anything is possible.
Oh, and by the way, Mr. Cox, I think that Mrs. Latas and Mr. Garner were either very gracious to accept the chamber's invitation, or very shrewd.
Had the chamber exhibited the level of candor that you purport to value, they would have contacted the challengers and said, "Look, we obviously have no intention of endorsing you, but we're inviting you to be interviewd so that it looks like we're being fair. That way, when we endorse the candidates that we can count on to vote our way, it will at least look like we didn't have it all worked out ahead of time."
Because let's face it: if Latas and Garner had declined the interviews, they would have been labeled as unresponsive, uncooperative, or whatever, and it would have given the chamber the excuse they needed to endorse the incumbents.
But what happened after that was really interesting. Not only did Latas and Garner have the courage and the courtesy to accept the invitation to interview, but they effected an outcome that nobody could have predicted: the chamber elected not to endorse anyone in the primary. So the challengers effectively denied their opponents the endorsement until after the challengers had secured their historic victories in the primary.
Oh, and I'm not sure, but I don't think the food bank makes any political endorsements. So how do you explain that the council chose to fund them, Mr. Cox?
Mom...
When you make an effort to discuss and not dictate I will respond. Your hostility is not becoming.
Tha's as nicely as I know how to respond.
Sigh! Geez I don't detect any hostility.
Well what exactly does the chamber do for a town, specifically OV?
What would a membership cost for a big company or business?
And in turn what does a company or business get for that cost?
Let's compare the two, cost and benefit to a large co or business v cost and benefit to a town such as OV.
Maybe Ov could just pay for a membership.
Either way, let us see if OV suffers in any way for not donating to the chamber?
Then Ms. Coyote I would suggest that you are not very objective in your observations.
Do I dare post the following....
I find it very interesting that there have been several postings that the Town Council was justiified in not funding the Chamber. In the next breath, those making those postings ask what does the Chamber do for the Town.
Is it asking too much for you to ascertain the answer to that question BEFORE you take a position. Wouldn't that be a prudent thing to do?
That is what is so frustrating to me. You (pl) have a position but in many instances have absolutely no clue why you have that position.
I could outline to you, until I am blue in the face, what positive things the Chamber does for the Town and you would either not believe me or say it is unimportant.
Do the leg work yourself and maybe then you will have a better appreciation.
Thinker,
I think that your response to OV Mom was rude. Where is she dictating?
Also when I posted I did not ask for you to give a response so no need to get all grumped out.
I figured you might respond and give
a few bits of info about what the chamber really does for OV.
Listen if you don't want to provide info that you have, that is fine but no need to get nasty.
I checked out the web site for the Northern Pima County Chamber of Commerce and could find no information about cost of membership nor could I find any visitor/tourist information for Oro Valley under that heading.
Maybe I missed it but if I did I guess a visitor could also miss it.
Ms. Coyote,
Mr. Cox declares that candidates "applied" for endorsement, and when it becomes obvious that they did not, he gives his convoluted reasoning as to why he's right and everyone else is wrong.
Then when anyone asks him a question, he attacks the questioner. Really, if this is what the chamber has for an ambassador, it's not looking good for them.
I did find the membership fees for the chamber:
$200 (1-2 employees)
$225 (3-5 employees)
$250 (6-10 employees)
$280 (11-15 employees)
$310 (16-20 employees)
$350 (21-30 employees)
$390 (31-40 employees)
$440 (41-50 employees)
$490 (51-60 employees)
$550 (61-70 employees)
$610 (71-80 employees)
$680 (81-90 employees)
$760 (91-150 employees)
$850 (150-199 employees)
$950 (200+ employees)
$200 (non-profit/school/church)
It's on the membership form in a drop-down list under membership fees.
I couldn't find any information particular to Oro Valley, either. I did find this:
"Those who live northwest of Tucson's city limits don't mind saying they're from Tucson, since it generally describes the entire region, of which those of us who live here are immensely proud."
Hmm. Well, I don't say I'm from Tucson. I say I'm from Oro Valley. And if the chamber is so proud of Tucson, why don't they go ask Tucson for money? Why not ask Pima County? Why was Oro Valley the only government entity supporting them?
I think the Oro Valley Town Council made a really good decision to fund the food bank and not fund the chamber.
Ms. Coyote....
You think my response was rude. I don't. But then many of the posters have different standards for different folks.
The asssumptions that OV Mom makes are so unrealistic and her knowledge of what the Chamber does or doesn't do is so limited that she can't forward a remotely accurate discussion about the subject.
And her last comment attempting to link a food bank with a Chamber of Commerce contains no logic.
I believe your last post most certainly did ask for several responses.
"Well what exactly does the chamber do for a town, specifically OV?
What would a membership cost for a big company or business?
And in turn what does a company or business get for that cost?"
There is a tab on the Chamber site clearly marked "Join the Chamber". All of the membership costs are outlined there.
There is another tab on the Chamber site clearly marked "Benefits". That outlines some of the benefits to belonging to the Chamber.
There are many links located throughout the Chamber site that provide valuable information to someone interested in securing information about Oro Valley.
It's all there....if you want to find it.
MOM.... Disagreement in your mind equates to "attack".
I am not an "ambassador" for the Chamber although I do support their many actions which benefit Oro Valley.
As I stated in my response to Ms Coyote, your knowledge of what the Chamber does or doesn't do is obviously limited and yet you make an attempt to display some expertise on the subject.
Have a great day.
Thanks OV Mom for the membership fee info, I went back to the web site and looked to see where the click on link was.
Thinker, Thank You also as you made me go back to the web site and take another look.
One of the Benefits listed under 1) is "mission is to serve, promote and protect its members and the business community of Northern Pima County.
Ok, that is great for the members, but private business and a government entity are two different things and don't always have the same goals. Not saying that business is not good for a commmunity :)
Under Item 4 Representation in Political and Legislative Affairs
"We actively engage in protecting business from excessive legislation and regulation", again
not bad if you are a business owner.
There are certainly instances where the goals of OV and the goals of members of the chamber are not in the best interest of Oro Valley or her citizens.
The Chamber looks like fine organization for the business community.
Not sure it is a good idea for
taxpayer money to be used to promote this private organization that has members who benefit financially from the use of our tax money.
Again some issues that benefit chamber members would not be good for a town nor the taxpayers.
So Yes, Maybe more of us should look over info closer so we can
justify our opinions.
I am glad I did and now feel even better about the decision that was mad.
Mr. Cox,
I have no idea whether you agree with me or disagree with me, because you chose to attack my demeanor as "hostile" and "dictating" rather than answer my questions.
Then I do the research that you suggest, and you belittle that by attacking my limited knowledge combined with my display of expertise. Huh?
The chamber has obviously done a very poor job of selling themselves to the public and to the elected officials from whom they want to extract funding.
OV Mom...
Let's face the reality of the situation. You are never going to agree with anything I say and until you come up with some accurate information to support your positions I am probably not going to agree with what you say. That's OK. It's what makes this world go around.
You appear (to me and others) to have a chip on your shoulder. And as the old line from Gone With The Wind goes, "Frankly Scarlett......"
While I appreciate the fact that you went to the NPCCC web site and looked up information you did so as an after thought. That's your privilege and I respect that. I choose to go about it differently. That doesn't make it bad.
I stand by my previous assertion that many of the people posting on this site speak long before they have sufficient information to support their statements.
Ms. Coyote....
Thank you for taking the time and effort to revisit the NPCCC site. If an individual makes a decision based on research and factual information then it is a good and sound decision....whether others agree with it or not. I try very hard to not be flippant with my remarks (although I have a tendency toward sarcasim) and I do a lot of information gathering.
Art,
You need to delete the last comment from "endthehandout" where he deliberately misspells Don Cox's last name. It's really ignorant.
This blogger started out with great promise but it didn't take him long to turn into a 14-year old.
Let's be consistent and remove ALL offensive posts, not just the ones that Thinker sometimes leaves.
Thank you.
I did not apply for Chamber endorsement.
Could it be that business is all for reduction in the size of government unless he cuts affect them? I am proud we funded the Community Food Bank and the Pima Council on Aging instead.
Barry G
Below is a comment from "endtherhandouts," addressed to Mr Cox. In the original comment, the writer "inadvertently" misspelled a couple of words. Taking the advice of "Victorian Cowgirl," I deleted the comment, and placed it here with the corrections.
Art
***********************************************
endthehandouts said...
Mr. Cox,
I also am interested in the actual benefit we in Oro Valley (not Northern Tucson) received from the NPCCC? Specifically, what monetary benefit do I get for my $27K in the last budget session?
July 13, 2008 8:32 AM
Mr. Cox,
You say: "While I appreciate the fact that you went to the NPCCC web site and looked up information you did so as an after thought."
Then you tell Ms. Coyote: "Thank you for taking the time and effort to revisit the NPCCC site. If an individual makes a decision based on research and factual information then it is a good and sound decision....whether others agree with it or not."
Hmm. How exactly do you know that I went to the chamber site as an afterthought? As it happens, I knew where to find the information because I had actually completed that form and joined the chamber.
I went back to the site, as you suggested, to find out what posititve things the chamber does for the town. I didn't find much.
I also want to comment council members Latas and Gillaspie for responding on this blog. You have courage and compassion, and I, too, applaud the fact that you chose to fund the food bank and the council on aging, which truly serve the people of the community.
Governing well means making tough choices, and you chose well. God bless.
I also found this on the website of the Tucson Metropolitan Chamber of Commerce:
"The Chamber is not a government agency and receives no funding from any federal, state, or local government."
That's excellent. They'll be getting my support in the future.
I agree with the earlier comments made by both council members Gillaspie and Latas. I did not "apply" to be interviewed by the Northern Pima County Chamber of Commerce. I was afforded the opportunity via invitation by the chamber. I might also add that there were several other organizations that I received an invitation to attend an endorsement interview. They were as follows: Tucson Chamber of Commerce and the Tucson Association of Realtors. I hope this clears any confusion on the part of Mr. Cox in regards to "applying" to the Northern Pima County Chamber of Commerce for an endorsement interview.
The by laws for any chamber of commerce state general funds cannot be used for PAC purposes. Are we accusing them of something, here?
Hi Mr. Street---- Welcome. Legitimate question.
Quick answer is "no." Perhaps they could be accused of stupidity to intercede in our local politics, but they chose to do so.
No one is suggesting they used Oro Valley funds to endorse candidates, but why would this council want to donate to an organization that opted to go down this road---especially when other organizations can do basically the same services.
Does it really matter if they take our money "in their right pocket," and spend THEIR money from the "left pocket?"
Good morning Art,
Yes it does matter if there are accusations of improprieties accompanying it! The mere implication of what was "supposedly" done with town money is an unsubstantiated falsehood. And, as for using the word "stupidity", I do my best to refrain from such vulgar diction on any topic, for it doesn't encourage positive dialogue.
Post a Comment