LOVE: Let Oro Valley Excel: OV Marketplace: "Absolute Genius." You 'Gotta' Be Kidding!

Thursday, June 26, 2008

OV Marketplace: "Absolute Genius." You 'Gotta' Be Kidding!

Dr. Bob Oro, in addition to his dental practice, is a contributing writer to the Az Star.

We really have to wonder what the good dentist means when he writes (click here to read the article): "--- the absolute genius -- of the --- Oro Valley Marketplace."

We thought a recent comment on our posting, Wal-Mart: What's Up With The Roof Aesthetics ann Potential Light Pollution from a new blogger, "orovalley611" was worth repeating.

orovalley611 said...

"Just finished reading Dr. Bob Oro's comments in the recent Northwest (section Az Star.)
Massive words for a massive project heaped upon OV Marketplace. Makes one wonder if he is planning to relocate his practice to that location???"

Well, it just may be what's in "the eye of the beholder." Dr. Oro sees "genius" in the OV Marketplace. We see just another strip mall anchored by that ugly, massive, 24/7 Wal-Mart!

43 comments:

Fear the Turtle said...: A couple of minutes ago a hugh wall cloud of dirt and dust entered our subdivision courtesy of OV Marketplace.
PIMA County has now entered to help us with our never ending dust and dirt (not including todays mess)problem. They can't believe construction is being allowed at 5:00am without the area first being watered down. The go ahead for construction to start at 5:00am was shortsighted and will come back to haunt TOV.

I can't believe how responsive PIMA county has been over the past couple of days and is going beyond the call of duty in helping us out.; June 26, 2008 at 3:33 PM
mscoyote said...: Maybe Dr. Bob is being sarcastic.
Maybe he thinks that Vestar was masterful in selling us a load of lies.
I think of Vestar as the Great Deceiver and the Marketplace as just another run of the mill shopping area.
Apparently Vestar is having trouble
filling those stores
Not many nicer stores want to locate near Wal-Crap; June 26, 2008 at 5:21 PM
mscoyote said...: People need to check out wal mart watch and see what they are saying about Wal-Mart and their record on the environment.
Maybe Dr. Bob is not aware of Vestar's ties with Wal-Mart.

Wake Up Dr. Bob.; June 26, 2008 at 5:27 PM
Victorian Cowgirl said...: Besides Dr. Oro's comments on Oro Valley Marketplace being completely baffling to me, I was even more surprised to read his take on Splendido...

"The vision that resulted in this development is true genius."

This comment is fascinating because Dr. Oro was VERY upset when a multi-story apartment complex was built across from his home, blocking his view of the mountains. But when the 4-story Splendido ruined the mountain views of residents in Rancho Vistoso, he calls it "vision" and "true genius."

With that in mind, it's hard to take his Oro Valley Marketplace comments seriously.; June 26, 2008 at 8:10 PM
OV Objective Thinker said...: Splendido is a development that went awry. However the only aspect that falls into that category is the height of some of the buildings. And when you look at the project and the number of people that are effected by this error, the number is rather small. Now I fully realize that to those few effected it is a monumental problem. But let's not go bonkers over this project. As Dr. Oro rightfully stated, it is a state of the art retirement center.

The Town learned from the project and the problem will not be repeated again.

Can you EVER look forward. Don't you ever get tired of re-hashing the same old stuff?

I guess one of the advantages of the buildings being that tall is that some folks can't gritch about the "ugly roof".; June 26, 2008 at 8:38 PM
artmarth said...: Cox wrote:
"The Town learned from the project and the problem will not be repeated again."

I'm sure he won't count the 60 ft hotel that was approved by the last council in violation of the zoning code, as being applicable.

However, I believe it's fair to say, the old council did NOT learn anything.

It was the citizens that learned, and voted the "undeserving" out of office. Now, for the first time, the people can expect to be heard when it comes to 60 ft. hotels & 4 story buildings.

As for the Wal-Mart, I guess Cox loves everything about it, including that UGLY roof!; June 26, 2008 at 9:42 PM
Zev Cywan said...: One of the very basic principles writtin into the Oro Valley guidelines is that [Oro Valley shall be of low profile]. Architurally Splendido is not only not of low profile, the type of architecture, in fact, EMPHASIZES height. So,just a relatively few properties were affected by this project that went awry? Ask those few property owners if they were
compensated for the down-valuing of their homes or their expected enjoyment of their properties. How can we attribute this simply as a project gone awry? Certainly our Zoning Administrator reasonably should have known and forseen a problem here. Certainly somone on P&Z reasonably should have known that there might be a problem here. Certainly someone at DRB reasonably should have known that there might be a problem here. And, finally, the buck should stop at the foot of the Council and shouldn't they have reasonably known that there might be a problem here? At a subsequent meeting at the presentation for the approval of a height of 60ft relative to our new future hotel, I recall that this situation, along with a few others, was referred to as [one of the necessary "tweaks"] in order that Oro Valley [meet it's needs]. So, OVOT, back to your statement that the [number of people was relatively small] consider: if it was just one of those people, to that person it was not small nor was it fair.

Building design and how it blends in with our environment and adjacent neighborhoods should be of high priority; I've seen it done well here and I've seen it done poorly. There are 'tricks' that can be used to 'soften' appearances, even in a no-trees desert. It may require an innovative approach but the results would be worth it.; June 26, 2008 at 10:26 PM
mscoyote said...: About Splendido. Riding down Rancho Vistoso , Splendido does not look neato.
Splendido sort of took over Rancho Vistoso .
Splendido would have been a beautiful
project on the right property. It looks out of proportion on that property. Too much building on too small of a property.
Again why?; June 26, 2008 at 11:05 PM
Victorian Cowgirl said...: Thinker,

To answer your question, "Don't you ever get tired of rehashing the same old stuff?"

Nope. Hypocrisy never gets old.; June 27, 2008 at 9:16 AM
raindancer said...: ov ot,
Why is it that everytime the TOV fails the people - your answer is: something went awry. It has gone awry and continues to do so - so it seems it has not learned from the mistakes of not following the plans and codes.

Seems to me that the past council members the present mayor and Mr Oro are in the same box. The mayor didn't want aparments,Ms Dankwerth showed up when construction at Pallisades would have affected her, Mr Oro didn't want his view blocked. Hopefully this new council will be different.

I'm so glad Mr Oro thinks the OV marketplace is an "absolute genius"! Like I said before: coming down Oracle reminds me of being on the Dan Ryan expressway in Chicago in the warehouse district.

raindancer; June 27, 2008 at 11:27 AM
Ferlin said...: Dr. Oro should concentrate on fixing teeth, creating dentures, and smiles. He did NOT bring a smile to us with his gloss-over of horrendous mis-development!

Did you know that he is into big publishing..loves his pictures in the ORO VALLEY/MARANA Magazine. This publication wastes money, trees and ink!

It is said that he objected to a development blocking his view. How would he like a crematorium? How would he like a Ford/Anthem Development creating 40 foot tall industrial buildings adjacent to homes. These homes finally had their zoning corrected to "Residential".

This guy is so off base! He thinks that "Master-Planned Rancho Vistoso" is something to brag about, when in fact, "Master-Planned" means "anything goes"!

Is he Leona Helmsly's nephew? She's the one that referred to the unimportant "Little People"!; June 27, 2008 at 2:16 PM
common sense thinker said...: I totally agree with ov objective thinker. Life is just too short for all of your negative thinking & (re-hashing)
Instead of being glad that many of us have a short drive to shop all you can do is find fault.
Are all of you that miserable all of the time?
Maybe you should go to the new Funeral Chapel on Vistoso & get a pre-paid headstone saying "I died hating everything built in Oro Valley.
Go out somewhere. Take a trip. Have some fun if you know how.
It is being built.
All of you knew what the land was zoned for when you bought by it.; June 27, 2008 at 3:06 PM
travelling dancer said...: Today, I visited the new ACE Hardware store on First near Tangerine and spoke with a gentleman who lives at Dove Mountain. He informed me it takes him about 12 minutes to drive to Ace Hardware. Just a few minutes down the road across the Interstate they are developing a beautiful INDOOR (due to the heat of the summer) Mall like a small city with WONDERFUL stores. So if you had a choice to go the another Foothills Mall, but outside, like a strip mall, or a beautiful INDOOR mall that is only a few minutes away, where would you go?

I am presuming that Vestar thought they would attract the people of Dove Mountain to a Wal-Mart, Good Luck, where do you think they would go. Remember also many residents of Oro Valley leave during the summer months. Perhaps OV Thinker thinks Wal-Mart is "upscale" I bet Dr. Oro given a choice would drive 10 to 15 minutes to a nice, INDOOR, great stores facility.; June 27, 2008 at 3:56 PM
Zev Cywan said...: CST, someone wrote an article which was an opinion extolling some of those things which have been controversial. Since the article was a rehash of glorification then it stands to reason that rebuttals will be somewhat of a rehash also. And no, CST, we are not miserable people; different people have different opinions and that's what this site is all about. On the other hand, for the most part you seem antagonistic to anyone who dares sully your vision of Oro Valley; does that make YOU the unhappy one?

And just a note about your last comment relative to knowing the zoning when we bought our properties: when my wife and I were looking 3 years ago, including some properties which overlooked the OVM area, we dealt with 3 RE agents (the first we simply didn't care for, the other two were associates); when we asked ALL 3 about the 'big expanse', ALL 3 HEMMED AND HAWED and mumbled vaguely about 'rumors' and would NOT tell us that a shopping center was most probably going to be built there. Now, any RE agent should be aware that they are required by law to disclose what they know or reasonably should know about anything that could affect the value of the property; failure to disclose can result in a lawsuit against the agent(s)AND the agency to which they 'belong' even though said agents are classified as being independant. Additionally, common sense (not You) would indicate that all has not been kosher here in Oro Valley - rules and regs skirted, processes tweaked, and public knowledge thwarted.

But, we now have a new Council; it's your turn to cry.; June 27, 2008 at 4:14 PM
Victorian Cowgirl said...: Oro says the community is hurting, yet he revels in Oro Valley Marketplace, the cause for so much of the "hurt." I've read the article three times and I still can't follow his logic.

Then he says, "the most discouraging part is that there seems to be no way out and no one to direct us to a better place."

Enter Salette Latas and Bill Garner. Hasn't he heard of them?

He goes on to say, "I see folks struggling to make sense of where we are going after the recent elections."

Who's struggling to make sense of the recent election? Bill and Salette won in a landslide, in the primary, the first time that's happened as far as I know. Their election made perfect sense. We were tired of year after year of pro-development council members who NEVER listened to the citizens. What's not to understand?; June 27, 2008 at 6:48 PM
Victorian Cowgirl said...: Common Sense Thinker,

In response to your comments...

"Instead of being glad that many of us have a short drive to shop all you can do is find fault."

Hmmm. Instead of being glad that you live in paradise surrounded by mountains and stunning desert vistas and abundant wildlife and great weather, all you can do is find fault that shopping is not convenient for you.

And...

"All of you knew what the land was zoned for when you bought by it."

Yup. We knew it was zoned commercial but we thought Oro Valley had higher standards than Wal-Mart.

And...when YOU BOUGHT your home here, you KNEW that you would have a long drive to shop because YOU KNEW there wasn't a nearby mall. I'll ask this question for the 25th time. Why did you buy a home in an out of the way place and then complain that everything was too far away?

Some of us bought homes in out of the way places because that's what WE wanted! So WE have more of a right to complain than YOU do.

Years ago I lived in a condo where dogs were allowed. There were 200 units and only about 10 dogs. Next thing you know, a bunch of new people moved in who decided they didn't want dogs allowed on the premises. They fought until they got their way and a rule was passed that dogs were no longer allowed.

Was this fair to the people who bought condos there who had dogs? No. And my point is that the people who didn't like dogs KNEW that dogs were allowed when they bought their condos but they decided that everyone else should have to change their way of life or move out in order to please them.

And that's a good analogy of what's going on in Oro Valley with OV Marketplace and how we're all expected to change our way of life because someone complained, "but it's not convenient for ME!"; June 27, 2008 at 7:24 PM
Zev Cywan said...: VC, excellent post! I would like to add that whereas Dr. Oro writes that "I see people struggling to make sense of where we're going after the recent elections", how can anyone make that statement when this new Council has been seated for only a few weeks. That was one contrived piece of work!!! Getting reality out of Dr. Oro is like pulling teeth.; June 27, 2008 at 8:27 PM
mscoyote said...: Cowgirl, when we moved here we knew where the shopping was and we were fine with the distance
I don't feel it is a hardship to drive a few miles to the Tucson Mall or the Foothills mall or even LaEncantada .
I also would rather be surrounded by God's handiwork then strip malls.

I am starting to seriously wonder what this new mall is going to look like.
So far I am not impressed.

The shopping area or strip mall that has the Kohl's is ugly, not that Kohl's is a bad store.

The LaEncantada is really a nice shopping center and so is the Casa Adobes.
So far nothing at the new OV mall
floats my boat.
And Vestar certainly seems to be avoiding answering questions about
the absence of nicer stores.

Can you say guilty as charged?; June 27, 2008 at 8:36 PM
boobie-baby said...: Oh my, it seems that many didn't do their due diligence when purchasing property. That's not to cast guilt on anyone, but if you know that the property next door is zoned commercial, you should be asking (at Town Hall, not your real estate agent) what that zoning includes. The Town even has a "Be Your Own Planner" portion on its website where you can learn everything about your own property as well as your neighbor's.

Of course, the zoning laws can and do change, which is why there are public hearings. Everyone has the right to ask for a change, and everyone has the right to appear before the governing body to support or oppose the change. In a perfect world, the governing body will make a decision that is in the best interest of the community.

The Vestar project is done, finished, kaput. If the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result each time, then we'll avoid being labeled as insane by trying to find that balance between your property rights (and your right to paint your garage purple) and your neighbor's right to paint his garage green.

Oro Valley Marketplace may be the ultimate purple garage, but let's learn to live with it, encourage local shopping to boost local sales tax revenues, enjoy the movies and restaurants there, and get on with our lives. There are more important things than whether Olive Garden opens another restaurant in OV Marketplace.

Believe it or not, I can't tell you how many times I've heard OV residents ask, "When will we get a REAL restaurant--like Denny's?"
I couldn't make up a story like that.; June 28, 2008 at 9:00 AM
Fear the Turtle said...: No problemo with the site being zoned Commercial and I knew it when I purchased a home here. You have to admit there were some very deceptive tactics used by Vestar to sway the voters but again this is old news and frankly don't want to rehash it again. I would love to move on but until the safety and welfare of the residents in nearby subdivisions has been resolved then I'm stuck in second gear.
Why after one year of the dust and dirt problems due to construction at OVM does Vestar continue to work without any consequence for their actions? In fact as a reward for their actions they get to start construction at 5:00am every morning of the week. At what time do the water trucks go into action??
What is going to happen once OVM opens and Vestar fails to comply with maintenance and safety items?; June 28, 2008 at 9:42 AM
mscoyote said...: For me personally I will have a hard time moving past it because of the 23.2 million dollar EDA!
Most knew that the property was zoned commercial. But most just assumed that OV had all these standards in place that would not allow what we are seeing. Honestly people were
in disbelief about the fact that the town would allow a Wal Mart.
Turtle, you asked what will happen.
Nothing, Nada, Zilch, etc etc.
I see problems with this mall in the future.
I base that on the track record of Vestar.
They were deceptive from the start.
Will they change their MO?
Why would they?; June 28, 2008 at 10:00 AM
boobie-baby said...: Ms Coyote,

Just so there's no misunderstanding and so we can move on as Fear the Turtle suggests, no town or city can say "yes" or "no" to a brand of store. Yes, cities can create ordinances that limit the size of stores, which would eliminate Target and Home Depot as well as Wal-Mart. So, you may want to think twice before going that route.

It will be interesting to watch and see which stores do well, and which fold up after their first year. Wal-Mart used to have a store on Pantano, north of Broadway. Eventually, it was closed and a new store was built at Kolb and Speedway.

Likewise, Home Depot closed its store at Broadway and Kolb and moved further east to Pantano and Broadway.

So, I suspect that the stores that you will see in 2008-09 may not be there in 2010. If that's the case, it's a mixed blessing. We want stores that bring in sales tax revenue--we do not want empty stores and a failed shopping center. That's in no one's best interest.

The "marketplace" of the world usually settles matters such as these, local politicians notwithstanding. We can push the zoning code to its absolute limit and tie up the town in litigation forever. That doesn't serve any useful purpose either.

The beauty of the U.S. Constitution is that it is really only a few pages long--compare that to the OV Zoning Code. And, yet, the Constitution remains in tact and amended as social issues forced change.

Again, let's move away from the Vestar talk and let's discuss how we can generate more income for the community so that the parks, libraries, police and other services remain at their current levels or better. This means we should stop discussing the "give-away" that everyone claims went to Vestar. The Council flexed its muscles with Aventis, but who knows if that was in the community's best interest. We'll just have to wait and see.

In the mean time, enjoy the new Ace on La Canada (where the shopping center does block the view of the patio homes to the north--back to "caveat emptor" again). No tax breaks there, but--yes--some people got a view that they hadn't considered when they purchased their homes.

Vonnegut--"and so it goes."; June 28, 2008 at 11:00 AM
Fear the Turtle said...: Please let me make my point a little clearer as I stated I CAN'T move on from Vestar on until the town decides to flex it's muscles and deal with Vestar and the ongoing air pollution issues.

Not only has this pollution damaged personal property but might be the cause of serious health issues.

The safety and the welfare of OV citizens near the OVM construction site have been at risk for over a year and the problems seem to be accelerating instead of slowing down.

We are hoping PIMA county can flex it's muscles and help us out.; June 28, 2008 at 2:18 PM
Zev Cywan said...: bb, I believe that, though, as usual, matters are rehashed and thus evolve into more comment, much of this IS a reaction to Dr. Oro's recently published musings and as a result one can expect a backlash.

As to your comment about a buyer and due diligence, caveat emptor is simply not enough to satisfy the 'material fact' provision of a real estate transaction. An agent is required to disclose, what they know or reasonably should know, especially when asked. Did/does the OVM fall into a material fact category? I'm not certain, but I did ask about the 'land' and was shrugged off.; June 28, 2008 at 6:46 PM
mscoyote said...: Boobie,
Yes I know that a so called big box ordinance would have eliminated a target, etc. But if it had been passed after Target and Home Depot were here, well it would not have closed those stores.
With all due respect to you I have the right to not get past the 23.2 million EDA, gift, rebate, pick your wording. Apparently thousands of others feel the same way as they signed a pledge to not shop there in protest of the Wal Mart. In my opinion it is one of the most controversial issues that OV has faced since I have lived here.

The posting on this blog mentions Wal Mart and the Oro Valley Marketplace so it is appropriate to comment in my opinion.

Unlike some I don't want to just
gloss over what happened or just get over it or forget it. I don't want to see this happen again.
And I also feel that just because we can't do anything about it we should not discuss it.
To feel that way would mean why bother talking at all, just say Yes or No.
Again no disrespect intended but
we are all entitled to post our opinions and thoughts as long as the blog owner allows us to.; June 28, 2008 at 7:42 PM
Zev Cywan said...: continuing from my prior post (my beloved wife was breathing down my neck in order that she could use the computer)......

As there would have been no direct effect on the property that I did end up purchasing, for me, that point became moot.

I do agree with bb that (aside from
reacting to Dr. Oro's and perhaps someone else's plaudits or denigrations at a future time) we must move on and 'let it be'.
When completed and operating we will KNOW the WHOLE painting and at that point our dislike may increase, decrease, or remain the same and we will all have to deal with it in each of our own ways. It is unfortunate that we will have to realize possible repercussions after the fact, but in the end, that's the reality.

In a prior post some time ago, I 'chastised' the community for [not having done enough research into Vestar's projects prior to voting for the EDA granted]. It was related to me that research was done, promises were made
and expectations were puffed. As previously noted in relating to a homeowner who purchases a property, in a circumstance like this, CAVEAT EMPTOR!; June 28, 2008 at 8:10 PM
boobie-baby said...: Ms Coyote,

All opinions are welcome, and if I implied that yours were not, then I accept responsibility.

"Realpolitik" means, among other things, dealing with things are they are, not as we wish them to be.

For the thousands who claim that they won't shop at Wal-Mart, who is the winner and who is the loser? If the shopping center doesn't create the expected revenue, then the Town gets less and Vestar gets less. This could lead (through a required vote) some form of property tax to balance the Town budget.

So, you are certainly entitled to be angry and to shop where you want. Fear the Turtle: Those homeowners who are impacted by the dust from the building activity are correct in taking their concerns to the County who is responsible for overseeing these issues. Stay on them....and the Town's code enforcement division.

I live a block behind a fast-food restaurant. It was there when I moved in and I knew it was there. Another business one block from my house went out of business and sat vacant for a year--a great entry into my neighborhood. Now, another business has rehabilitated the building and started a new business.

So, basically, nothing is ever really finished--the song is over, but the melody lingers on (which Zev, as a musician, will appreciate).

I think the current Council has learned their lessons, and now the Town has NO policy whatsoever about incentives. If that's the way you want it, that means that a future Council could approve an incentive to encourage, for example, a high-tech employer. Would you be opposed to that if it meant high-salaried workers buying homes and shopping in OV stores? (No, I'm not talking about Sanofi-Aventis--they were already here).

Public policy is complex--there are unintended consequences, property rights, citizen rights and expectations and the law that ought to be in balance. Even the state legislature has to "fix" things every year--300+ bills passed in the most recent session.

If I need a can of paint or some marigolds for my garden and I'm near Wal-Mart, I'll stop there and buy what I want. I may not run into any of you, but that's our choice, and Bob Oro's choice, too.; June 29, 2008 at 8:45 AM
Zev Cywan said...: bb

There is at least 1 policy in OV regarding tax sharing incentives and that is that prior council did vote to discontinue the practice for the retail sector. I believe that a policy will be developed at a future date relative to other types of potential incentive and once on paper can settle the issue once and for all.

That you iterate that "public policy is complex" and that the legislature has to "fix things every year" (this year 300+ fixings) is an indication that legalisms have been and are becoming just too much out of the realm of reason. I am a firm believer in the KISS philosophy(Keep It Simple Stupid) as well as the Less is More principle. As you previously stated, the Constitution itself is a simple document, relatively short and to the point. Yes, there might be room for interpretation and application, thus the Supreme Court, but the basis (pl), in fact, are there and really, that's all we need as a guideline for societal order. Even in biblical times,'heaps of laws' were not only discouraged but the perpetrators themselves were 'punished' (I won't elaborate as that is another subject for research and discussion).; June 29, 2008 at 1:18 PM
mscoyote said...: Hi Boobie.
You ask who is the winner/loser if we don't shop at Wal-Mart.
Well I consider myself a winner for not shopping there.
I can't judge people who shop there but don't know any better.
Why would you stop and buy flowers and paint or anything else there when
we have other places so close that will contribute the full amount of sales tax to OV.
Ok, it is your choice but I would expect more from you.

About favoring economic incentives for a high tech business.
For me that is a iffy answer.
But in general I would say I don't favor them as these incentives seem to either cause problems or open the door for problems.
So if nobody participates then it becomes a level playing field.
I prefer that government sticks to the basics.
Seems most have enough trouble with that anyway.
I also feel that we will end up with this very average or below
average mall, we will end up
paving over our town with too much development and we will end up with a property tax anyway.; June 30, 2008 at 4:53 PM
boobie-baby said...: Thank you, Ms. Coyote, for your honest answers to the questions I posed.

Note that I said that "if I were near Wal-Mart," I would make my purchases there. But, yes, I could make those same purchases at other retail outlets in OV if it were more convenient.

As for incentives, it's a sword that cuts two ways. In the Phoenix and Southern California area, it's serious business with so many communities bordering each other and sharing major streets. It's less of an issue in southern Arizona, and the Legislature has tried to place limits on the incentives--and those limits are now in place, mostly because of a situation in Maricopa County.

You're right--it's hard to tell if you'd be in favor of an incentive to attract a high-tech employer. That's what we elect the Council to do--to make those hard decisions.

As for the rest of the bloggers, will you avoid going to the movie theatre, too, in order to "punish" the Town Council and Vestar? I know the answer--they "promised a movie theatre" but "they tricked us" on Wal-Mart. In either case, though, the sales tax gets shared. So, what will you do--go to the movie in Oro Valley or drive out to Marana or into Tucson?

Serious question--I hope that it generates serious answers.; July 1, 2008 at 11:23 AM
Victorian Cowgirl said...: Boobie-baby,

I will wait for the movie to come out on video and then I will rent it and watch it in the comfort of my own home, just as I have been doing for the past ten years.

These days, Hollywood rarely produces anything that I would want to see anyway. And some years ago, movie theaters decided that the volume of the movie should be on a par with that of a rock concert. It was no longer enjoyable to go to the movies and that's when I stopped going. Then the quality of the movies went downhill and there was nothing to entice me to ever go back.

But if I were a movie-goer, yes, I would go to the new theater in Marana rather than give Vestar my money. I know that doesn't make sense to you, but think of it this way...

Let's suppose you are adamantly pro-life or adamantly pro-choice. Then you find out that Vestar donates huge sums of money every year to groups on the opposing side. Would you feel comfortable giving them your money knowing that YOUR money will then be used to fund something that goes against everything you believe in? Wouldn't you choose to go somewhere else instead?

After what they did to us, I can only imagine what else they do with all their millions and that's why MY money won't be contributing to their bank account. Won't they just use it to fund their next million dollar marketing campaign that they will use to hoodwink people in some other town?

I'll pass on being a part of that!

Is THAT a serious enough answer to your question?; July 1, 2008 at 1:38 PM
boobie-baby said...: VC--

Yes, that's a serious answer. There's probably no need to bring in the corporate investment policies of organizations, but that's your right if you wish.

I'll ask bloggers here once again: How many of you have gone back to look at your 401k's or your IRA mutual funds or other investments to see if Wal-Mart is among their holdings? If you did, did you change your investment or did you choose to attend the mutual fund's annual meeting?

There are lots of ways for you to show your displeasure with companies. One way is with your feet, as many of you have suggested--that is, shopping elsewhere. I don't think that's going to work in the Oro Valley Marketplace in the long run, so it's my opinion that it's an empty exercise that ends up costing us more in air pollution and wear and tear on our roadways. But it IS your right, so go ahead and exercise it if you wish.

I'd prefer to spend my time and energy building a community with adequate recreation facilities, a well-run library, an effective police force that prevents crime rather than solving crimes, and attracting retail outlets that are a realistic match to what OV consumers (and consumers from nearby areas) are consistently willing to spend. (See my other post about some residents wanting a REAL restaurant like "Denny's").

Call me crazy, but that's how I'd prefer to spend my time--not driving to Marana to see a film.; July 2, 2008 at 11:24 AM
mscoyote said...: Boobie Baby you're crazy!!!Just doing what you requested : ),

Yes I agree there are lots of ways to show displeasure with companies, some of us have chosen not to shop at the OV Marketplace. You say it's an empty exercise causing more air pollution and wear and tear on our roadways.
Not necessarily true. It depends on where you live in relation to the new mall. Also how about all those cars coming in from other towns, don't they pollute and cause wear and tear on our roads?
Hmm, I think they do.

You prefer to spend your time on building adequate recreation facilities, well run library and an effective police force.
In my opinion we already have those things.

I still feel that the Vestar 23.2 million dollar EDA has caused so much damage to this community that you can't put a price tag on it.
Without the EDA, we would most likely still have a new mall, maybe not Vestar, but that would have been fine, we would have more trust and confidence on our elected officlas and town staff and we would have been 23.2 million dollars richer.

No I really don't think you are crazy, I think you are super intelligent but a tad naive.
When I say you are a tad naive, I mean that you are probably very trusting and have not been exposed to situations that would have you become cynical.; July 2, 2008 at 12:12 PM
boobie-baby said...: VC--

You're absolutely right. Whatever you do, somebody else does something different, and the net gain or loss is zero. Again, if that is how you choose to make your point, be my guest, but no one gains in your scenario.

"Naive"--hardly. I recognize that I can't fight battles that have already been fought and that the things that I CAN do are a better use of my time and energy at this point in my life.

You, on the other hand, seem to want to spend your energy re-fighting the same old battles with "if only we hadn't...." arguments. Well, we did. So, "if we hadn't" is no longer operative.

The Town will continue to be at the end of its financial rope without increased retail; and that retail won't come until homes are built within or nearby the community. Those are facts--indisputable--not naive. So, let's make the best of it--make sure that the communities are well-planned, and that the services that you seem to enjoy so much ("we already have those things") continue to be funded at adequate levels.

If you choose to spend your money elsewhere, are you ready for some form of other taxation?

And why won't anyone answer my divestment of Wal-Mart stock question? Do I hear the pitter-patter of hypocritical or lazy feet......?; July 2, 2008 at 1:04 PM
mscoyote said...: Boobie
I disagree with you.
The winner in my way of thinking or doing things would be the town of OV, as I will shop where my full tax money goes to the town. Also winning will be the OV local and or existing business community.

I am sorry if I offend you by saying that you appear a little naive.That was not my intention at all.
Seemingly you have not been exposed to people or situations that would require "street smarts"
Again not as a criticism, you perhaps are one of the lucky ones.

Yes I probably do spend too much energy fighting "old" battles, but I have a strong sense of right and wrong and hate to see injustice.
You consider that a fault, others
don't.

Also you really have no idea what
I have done or my involvement in local issues.

Until this last post of yours I really thought you were perhaps fair minded or neutral on development issues.
I was wrong.
I now see that you have
a heavy pro-development stance.
I am not in favor of more and more development in order to generate sales tax. Where does that end?
Most likely we will have a property tax in OV.
No, I won't like paying a property tax but I sure as h ll would rather pay a property tax then live in a paved desert with endless retail.

I have no stock in Wal Mart and don't shop there and would never shop there unless I was destitute and had no choice.; July 2, 2008 at 1:39 PM
Victorian Cowgirl said...: Boobie-baby,

You addressed your last post to me, "VC" but I think you were actually responding to comments made by Ms. Coyote? Yes? She was the one who said you were naive.

You asked again, "And why won't anyone answer my divestment of Wal-Mart stock question?" You might remember that I DID answer your question when you first asked it a couple of weeks ago. I think I was the only one who did. Wal-Mart is NOT in my portfolio. I deliberately chose one that invests in companies with a "social conscience." I couldn't sleep at night, otherwise!; July 2, 2008 at 2:52 PM
boobie-baby said...: VC--You're correct--my responses were to Ms. Coyote. And congratulaions on divesting your portfolio of Wal-Mart, if that was your choice.

Ms. Coyote, I am hardly naive and I'm the last person to be branded pro-development.

What I AM is anti-stupidity. I'm anti-useless gestures. I'm anti-hyprocrisy.

Let's say, for example, that Vestar has a line of credit from Bank One. Knowing that, would you change your bank account to "punish" the bank and the developer? You see how absurd this gets, right?

Right now, I believe that Vestar will have a difficult time leasing space if for no other reason than the international economy, not what some shoppers do or don't do in OV. This is NOT a good thing--the Town needs the retail sales tax income, and empty stores don't produce anything, either for Vestar or the Town. Remember that Vestar's agreement with the Town runs out after 10 years, and it may take half of those 10 years just to get rent-paying businesses in the place.

This is not a reason to rejoice; and it's not a reason to shop elsewhere if the equivalent store is located at OV Marketplace.

I can't understand why anyone would want to drive to Marana or Tucson to shop ONLY to attempt to punish the developer who exercised his right to develop.

Did the boys from the big city (Phoenix) put one over on the Town? Probably, the election results on the initiative notwithstanding. We learned, we elected new leaders. Let's cheer on OV Marketplace, get the stores filled, and get on with our lives.; July 4, 2008 at 10:02 AM
Victorian Cowgirl said...: Boobie-baby,

No, I wouldn't change my bank if I learned that Vestar used the same bank, but I do understand your analogy. Some things are just "hot buttons" and each of us has to decide how we want to handle our own hot button issues.

You said, "I can't understand why anyone would want to drive to Marana or Tucson to shop ONLY to attempt to punish the developer who exercised his right to develop."

They had a right to develop, but they didn't have a right to stab taxpayers in the back in order to do it.

If a friend of yours set out to deliberately stab you in the back, then that "friend" opened, let's say a bicycle shop, and you were in the market for a new bike, would you purchase it from the business owned by the backstabber or would you drive somewhere else to buy one?; July 4, 2008 at 11:58 AM
mscoyote said...: Boobie,
I have never said that the developer does not have the right to develop!!!!!!!!
But I do strongly feel that Vestar does not have the right to 23.2 million in taxpayer money. I am not alone as many legal minds feel the same way.
Again I will shop here in OV when possible, but at stores that contribute the whole tax amount to OV.
Aside from that so far there is not much going on at that new mall that will entice me to spend my money anyway. Now that may be a blessing in disguise.
Aside from a few new places to stuff my face, honestly it is the same old stores that are all over the place.

Sorry that you don't respect my opinion but as you say "learn to live with it".

Yes I will learn to live with that new mall but that does not mean I have to shop there.

Yes it is time to move on and NO it is never time to forget the offials who promoted this mistake, we can't let this type of mistake happen again here in OV.; July 4, 2008 at 11:59 AM
boobie-baby said...: If it was, in fact, a "mistake," then the most recent Council elections are first step toward not making the same mistake again. A lack of formal policy will allow future Councils to decide these issues on an "ad hoc" basis, and I'm not so sure that I'm completely comfortable with that. Are you? Shouldn't there be written, debated and adopted guidelines?

I will to go the theatres when I choose; I may even "stuff my face" as Ms. Coyote suggests. (Not really--I think I'd prefer other food than the chain restaurants). So, let's watch who leases the stores, who succeeds, who fails, and what the whole thing looks like after 5 or 10 years. Then we'll have a better perspective of what the relative costs and benefits have been.

Until then, Home Depot and Taget and Ace and Fry's will continue to get my business. How about you?; July 6, 2008 at 3:20 PM
Victorian Cowgirl said...: Boobie-baby,

You forgot to answer my "bicycle" question.; July 6, 2008 at 8:48 PM
boobie-baby said...: VC,

Your "bicycle" question is similar to the one asked of Michael Dukakis in the presidential debates, only that time it was about the appropriate punishment for someone who has raped or murdered his wife.

I am not going to fall into that rhetorical trap. I believe in free will. If someone physically harms me and also owns a business, I will decide on my own whether to patronize that business.

The implication here is that you have been harmed (personally) by the vote of the people on OVM. So far, I can't see any harm to you. The potential exists for your bank account to be harmed if the stores don't get built and occupied.

No sales tax = probable property tax for the community. Take your choice.; July 7, 2008 at 1:34 PM
Victorian Cowgirl said...: Boobie-baby,

Harm comes in more ways than a lowering of my bank account. More crime and more auto pollution are more harmful in my estimation than what's in my bank account.

And as Art keeps trying to tell everyone, if your biggest concern is generating sales tax for the town, thereby avoiding a property tax, then it makes more sense to shop where the ENTIRE sales tax goes to the town than to shop where only half of it will.

That's why the sales tax/property tax argument doesn't hold water.; July 7, 2008 at 4:39 PM

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Thursday, June 26, 2008

OV Marketplace: "Absolute Genius." You 'Gotta' Be Kidding!

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