We received an email, a second one, from this blogger with similar content. We thought we'd share it and our response with you. Tell us what you think:
Here’s the email we received:
“Your constant harping on the $23 million giveaway is alienating people. Did you read the letter in the Oro Valley Explorer??? It's over and was done by other people. Why not focus on current issues that have some meaning to the broad majority. Out of curiosity, I'm curious as to whether or not you think a 75 foot hotel in the Tangerine/Oracle area will block anyones views???”
Our Response---
“If you are referring to the letter from "Roberta in Saddlebrooke," yes I read it. Rather than responding, why don't you read the comment from "Vicorian Cowgirl," to the letter which was posted on the blog. Her response is as good as anything I might say.
As far as alienating people, I expect those are the same people who bought into the "story" that Vestar was bringing in a "unique, upscale" mall. Don't you realize that Vestar will pocket almost half of Oro Valley tax revenue that will be cannibalized from our existing retailers? I'm not even talking about the big retailers. What about the small independent shop owners like the bike store, the card shop, the small boutiques. These people, many of whom are Oro Valley residents may lose their businesses as a result of this Wal-Mart competition. And, don't tell me about free enterprise. If Vestar didn't get that giveaway, nobody could argue with their arrival here. But, that is not the case.
And, by the way, in case you missed it, The Goldwater Institute has filed a lawsuit, which, hopefully, if successful, will negate these giveaways. Are they also "harping?"
Enough on that. As to a 75' hotel at Innovation Park, there is only one issue. Not whether it will impede any views-----the developer acknowledged it would!--- but it violates the code. Do you understand that we have a code that limits the hotel to 36'? Why would the council violate a code at the whim of a developer?
Also, in case you don't know----the previous council violated the code by allowing a 75' hotel in front of Pusch Ridge, on the east side of Oracle road. The issue there was not about impeding people's views, but of impeding the beautiful views of the mountain.
You obviously have a different point of view on the direction Oro Valley should take.
As for your comment, "Why not focus on current issues that have some meaning to the broad majority,'' what issues are you alluding to? Could it be, the Utility Tax, The Golder Ranch Fire Dept annexation, the 4 story Splendido, the potential new row of 21 power lines on Tangerine, the $160 million Loomis wants to spend on his park, the water shortage issue, the crematorium, the town budget, etc.?
Are you reading our blog? I guess not. If you were, you wouldn't make the comment as to "focusing on current issues." That's all we've been doing since our inception! Why not tell me, what issues concern you and "the broad majority" we seem to be "alienating?"
Perhaps, we could address "those" issues."
12 comments:
"Why not tell me, what issues concern you and "the broad majority" we seem to be "alienating?"
This calls to mind that 'those who [forget] history are doomed to repeat it.' The next time some developer or other predator barrages the community with four color ads urging us to vote 'YES' on some issue or another, perhaps more people will inform themselves before voting. All the hype about having a movie theater just around the corner (when no theater chain had actually committed to the project)? Promises of raised-pinky boutiques rather than sweaty, proletarian Wal-Marts?
We already have a mall in Oro Valley. It's called Oracle Road, which is commercial development from Catalina to Drachman Road, broken for the moment only by the short stretch that we residents are building as a gift to Vestar.
Dangerous Bill....
I love your name because it is very accurate. You are dangerous.
A developer made it possible for you to live here, Bill.I would submit then, Bill, that by your definition you are a product of a "predator".
I also guess that Fry's is a predator, Safeway is a "predator" and Basha's is a "predator" because they use four color ads. But then you may be right, Bill, as they all contributed heavily to SOVOG who used color ads and asked us to vote "No" on the EDA.
You also go on to state that the voting public of Oro Valley is not well informed. It seems rather obvious to me that they simply disagreed with your position and therefore,according to you Bill, are not well informed. That should buy you some points.
Lastly, I guess you would prefer the commercial development to be in residential neighborhoods rather than on major arterial roadways, Bill.
That's another dangerous thought, Dangerous Bill.
To quote a distinguished contributor to this blog, "Are you [they] nuts?"
Once again,which is not surprising to any astute reader, "The Thinker" believes that "slinging mud" will clarify the issue.
He always sees fit to interject an irrelevant point into the discussion in his attempt to demean the writer.
Does anyone really believe that the three named supermarkets use of color ads has anything do to with Vestar using any means available to deceive the citizens of Oro Valley, including all those 5x7" postcards that inundated our mailboxes almost on a daily basis.
And---not that it matters, but SOVOG did not have the money available to use any color ads. All of our (SOVOG) funds were used in allowing the citizens their constitutional right to vote.
Lastly,without knowing "Dangerous Bill," I must say, his pseudonym is more appropriate than "OV Objective Thinker."
What Art did not mention (in his posting of the email) was that this writer had sent us an email saying that he and all the people he knows thought that they were "living in paradise" and that the writer couldn't understand why we were making comments about anything "not right" about Oro Valley.
We explained that it was the governance of Oro Valley that was faulty and not the Town's unique beauty or climate. We explained why we were concerned and that we felt it best to provide all the citizens of our Oro Valley a chance, through LOVE, to become informed, dialogue, share views and make informed decisions.
ov objective thinker lacks any credibility at this point in time and is relegated to annoyance status.
Since there are two sides to every story it would be nice to have someone other than ov objective thinker provide constructive criticism.
Thinker,
I remember receiving daily 4-color glossy ads from Vestar in my mail. This barrage of mailers went on for weeks! I also received a DVD from Vestar. I do not remember receiving even one, let alone daily, 4-color mailers from SOVOG. What are you talking about?
And the grocery stores' 4-color ads are not used for the purpose of hoodwinking voters into voting to give them millions of dollars. They use their flyers to advertise the products they sell and to inform customers of items on sale. This is not the equivalent of what Vestar did with their flyers and to try to assert otherwise is simply ridiculous!
Then you said Bill called people uninformed simply because they disagreed with his position. Isn't that what YOU always do, Thinker? When someone disagrees with you, you constantly tell them they need to get informed by attending council meetings, P&Z meetings, etc. and reading this document or that one.
I agree with Bill on this one. Many OV residents WERE uninformed on the OVM issue. How do I know this? Because when my husband and I talk to people about this, we are amazed to find out just how many people, even today, do not know who Vestar is, they didn't know that a mall was being built, they didn't know that a Wal-Mart was coming, and those who DID know about Vestar and the mall, had no idea that all of Vestar's mall's are anchored by a W-M and therefore had no idea that W-M would most likely be the anchor for OVM.
These people all received the same Vestar and SOVOG flyers that we did and they all have the Explorer delivered to their driveway each week, yet they were all ignorant on the issues! Some people live under a rock and unfortunately, some of those people still go to a voting booth.
And yes, a developer made it possible for ALL of us to live here, but there are good developers and bad developers. We all know which one Vestar is!
I don't consider the foods stores like Safeway, Basha's, etc as predators. They don't deceive us with their advertising. They advertise xyz at xxx a pound , etc.
The food stores never promised me filet mignon while packaging ground beef.
They don't try to sell us one thing and deliver another.
I received at least 19 color ad's from Vestar, telling me to vote Yes!!
Yes , developers make it possible to live here, but we also make it possible for the developer to work here, its our money that keeps these developers in business. Without our wanting to live here and our money, bye bye Mr. cementhead!!
OK. Let's recap.
I am accused of "slinging mud" when I only used the words of Bill. I was accused of demeaning the writer. I have been relegated by a turtle to "annoyance status". And Ms. Coyote calls me "cementhead", what ever that means.
I can always tell when I am hitting home when you collectively attack.
And Art, don't sit back and try to tell people that all SOVOG did was to allow people the right to vote. SOVOG spent a great deal of money, buying buttons, buying advertising space and other means advocating a no vote. And I might add slowed the eventual result by well over a year because of their own carelessness.
Cowgirl, I make an attempt to point out inaccuracies in specific postings. I don't call a class of people, such as the voting public of Oro Valley uninformed. And if you go back and check, I did not say that SOVOG used any four-color mailers. I knew better. And yes, the stores do to try to influence our actions on almost a daily basis with their ads. That doesn't make them preditors. But when Vestar sends their ads, they become a "predator". I guess it is in the eyes of the beholder.
To Thinker. Geez, sorry, I did not call you a cementhead!!!
Not laughing at you however your last post is making me laugh!
Ok, so have you seen the commercial with the turtle couple, named the Slowski's?
Not sure you are hitting home, but really you are running into a wall, as most here don't agree you you.
But hey it is good to hear other opinions.
What do you think of Roberta from Saddlebrooke and her being happy as a claim when she sees dirtmovers, making the way for a new Wally World?
Now there is a women for you. Kidding!
Personally I am sort of glad to see new people posting like bill and the turtle.
Thinker,
First you said that the grocery stores were predators because they all used 4-color ads and then you said they "all contributed heavily to SOVOG who used color ads." Then you claim that you never said that SOVOG used 4-color mailers. But that is exactly what you implied in your first statement.
Vestar won the war because they had millions of dollars at their disposal and they could afford to design and mail the 4-color daily ad blitz. Citizens groups do not have that kind of money at their disposal. SOVOG lost because people were sucked in by all the pretty colors, I guess! The people with money and powerful lawyers always win because they can afford to do whatever it takes to pull the wool over people's eyes.
I also believe Ms. Coyote was calling the developers cement heads, not you. That's how I read it. They love to roll into town with their bulldozers and cement mixers and turn paradise into a parking lot.
Ms. Coyote summed it up best regarding the "predator" argument. The grocery stores don't package ground beef labeled as filet mignon. You can't argue with that.
Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone
Pave paradise
Put up a parking lot
Joni Mitchell, Big Yellow Taxi
First of all let's put things in their proper prospective.
The Sloski commercials are GREAT!!!
And not to get picky Cowgirl, but I said "color ads" not four color ads. It's all part of my "Accuracy in Blogging Reform Act!!! I am trying to get Art and Dick to adopt it.:-)
Yes, getting new folks here is a good thing.
I am truly looking forward to this next election and I hope that we can have something better than a 35% turnout!!! I am jusy curious, but did any of you watch the televised candidate forum in the last election? I am trying to judge it's effectiveness.
Hey, Cowgirl and Ms. Coyote....would you be willing to help me sponsor a candidate forum this election year? I may cost a few bucks for advertising, set-up and some water but I think it would be worth it and I think the forums are helpful.
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