Monday, September 28, 2009

Why & How Loomis Wanted David Andrews Removed As Oro Valley Town Manager Part 2

We left off noting why we believe Paula Abbott cast the deciding vote to terminate David Andrews. We hope all our readers will take the time to listen to the audio of this Sept 23 debacle of a meeting. Listen to my impassioned plea to Paula to not have her follow Loomis, Carter & Kunish, all of whom had "an axe to grind" with David. Sadly, it was all for naught. Paula was "hooked."

I hope you all watched the KVOA segment and noted three people were interviewed: me, David & Loomis. Too bad, I only received about 4-5 seconds of the 2-3 minute interview, long enough to say David's termination was a result of vindictiveness. That was only one reason. Innuendo was a major factor, and we'll get to that soon enough.

Watch the Loomis segment. Short but quite revealing. When you don't know what to say, you mumble and fill your sentences with "uh." Loomis did just that. He embarrassed himself and he embarrassed us as OUR mayor. Why was David forced out? Loomis says, "issues." Loomis couldn't say what many of us know. It was his basic insecurities of not being able to control David, as he (Loomis) does to every other weak person---which David is not. More on that later.

What was really telling was the short interview with David. With a heavy heart knowing he just signed his forced resignation letter, David exhibited such class and dignity----two attributes that Loomis lacks, and only said, "Thanks to the citizens, thanks to the council, thanks to the staff.Oro Valley is a great place to work and I'm only sorry I won't be around here anymore, but that's how it goes."

How many of us could or would have the wherewithal to be so gracious under those difficult circumstances? Certainly, not I. The more I watch the "David & Loomis" segments the madder I get. To lose a man like David and be stuck with a classless individual like Loomis, who will continue to embarrass us, probably until June, is very disconcerting---to say the least.

Loomis must be voted out of office in March----no ands, ifs or buts. He is not worthy of representing our fine community.

Now--- back to the issue. Allow me to give you the facts as I know them.

The word that was bantered around, certainly by Abbott, just prior to being cut off by the town attorney because she was about to violate what was said in the Executive Session of Sept 16, only one week prior to David's forced resignation----was "issues."

We already know Loomis said it on air. In essence, David was terminated because of "issues."

So, what exactly are these "issues" that were enough to force David out after 18 years of such dedicated service to our community? We'll get to it in a moment, but let's consider a few "ISSUES."

An anonymous letter was allegedly mailed to the mayor & council on Aug 14, and the letter writer in a subsequent letter said the initial letter dated July 30, should have been received by Aug 17. No recipient, to my knowledge ever received that first letter. Was it sent? I don't know, but there are those that believe there may not have been any first letter. Regardless, a second letter was mailed to the same individuals on Aug 30, this time to their home addresses, via the US Postal Service.

I have seen the letter. Although the anonymous letter writer had full intentions of causing David Andrews a problem, there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the letter other than malicious innuendos.

So, if not this, what then could be the "issues?"

It is a fact, readily admitted by the Oro Valley police, that their union representatives wanted David out. Why, you ask? For no other reason than they think---and, at this point, they damn well may be right---that they run Oro Valley. Remember, David, working for the best interests of the people of Oro Valley believed the police who have by far the biggest budget---about the same as every other department cumulatively, fought "tooth & nail" so as to not allow even one of their own to be cut back, even though other departments had to do so.

Oh no! Not the cops! We already saw them in action as they showed up in force at the council meetings, both in uniform and in plain clothes with their sidearms in full view, making it clear what their intentions were.

This is the same union that only a few years ago had the audacity of putting out a document saying that they would try to work with the council, but if their perception was such that the council wouldn't work with them, meaning, meeting their demands, then "we'll take you out!"

Why is this important to note? Because David Andrews met with small groups of all the departments in an attempt to alleviate our budget issues, including a projected $1.4 million deficit for this coming fiscal year. Each department met with David in the small room at Town Hall. The police showed up in mass, and the large room where council meeting are held was the place they met.

Oro Valley's "Finest" thought they were running a union meeting, and without David's knowledge, the proceedings were taped and used against David. Although it is legal to tape someone without their knowledge, many believe, at least in this instance, it was morally & ethically wrong.

I have NOT heard the tape, but to my knowledge, the "worst" thing David said was that council members may say some things to him in public that differ from what might be said in private. If there's more, and I'm lead to believe there isn't, than this certainly couldn't be a big enough "issue" to terminate David.

Back to the Sept 16 Executive Session. As it is a violation for anyone in attendance of divulging what was said, I'm sorry but I don't know. Abbott came close to saying something before the Town Attorney delicately told her to shut up.

What I do know is this. The council knew about this anonymous letter weeks before the Executive Session. The cops had already surreptitiously taped their meeting with David. According to David's contract, it is for a a year, and renews automatically unless the council votes not to renew.

By the way, David has always known he is vulnerable as the council (his seven bosses) could vote to remove him at anytime WITHOUT cause. We believe this is exactly what happened!

So---In Executive Session, David's contract is discussed---(the meeting, not the contents was public knowledge) and no action was taken. No action means the contract renews for another year---or until council sees fit to terminate it, with or WITHOUT CAUSE.

On the morning of Sept 23, at about 9:30 AM Loomis phoned David telling him he wanted his (David's) letter of resignation. David was in a meeting, and didn't respond. Loomis then went to David's office and reiterated the demand, making two things very clear to David. One was that Loomis had four votes to terminate David, and two, that Loomis had four votes to not have to go into Executive Session to further discuss David's status. Rather, Loomis desired to make this a quick ordeal---voting immediately, and get David "out of the way once and for all."

Let's go back and discuss a couple details.
On Sept 21, Carter requests this Special Session in conjunction with the already scheduled Study Session. Kunisch seconds Carter's request and Loomis gives it his blessing. On Sept 22, it is added to the agenda and noted on the town's web site.

The agenda read: "Executive Session: Pursuant to A.R.S. 38-431.03 (A) (1) Council may vote to go into Executive Session for discussion regarding Town Managers David Andrew's contact."

Special Session---same as above. It was all a sham. There was never going to be any Executive Session, with only 3 votes, and David knew it and Loomis knew it---or why would Loomis tell David not to expect any Executive Session?

David knew that Loomis knew he had four votes, so David acquiesced and agreed to resign if he received his severance package and avoided the "blight" on his resume showing he was fired. (You or I may have not done so, but who could argue that David had to do what he thought was best under these terrible circumstances.)

Point number two. How could Loomis know he had the four votes? As we noted in Part 1 of this saga, Loomis is shrewd. He plans out all his steps. After all, he is a politician---not a good one, but a shrewd one. In any case, doesn't it seem reasonable that the ONLY way Loomis would know he had Abbott "in the bag" is if he, Carter, Kunisch & she violated the open meeting laws by discussion David's dismissal PRIOR to the Special Session?

Keep in mind, the four need not cuddle up in some sleazy motel and conspire. All that need be done to violate the law is for communication PRIOR to the open meeting. That includes, talking on the phone, email, (even they are too smart not do that) or by any other means.

So the Special Session goes as planned. Kunisch in his stupid, arrogant manner tried to make the predetermined motion before Loomis even opened the meeting for public comments. (Listen to the audio, if it won't make you sick, as it was obviously so contrived.) The public spoke and the public knew this was a set-up, but it fell on deaf ears.

Barry, Bill & Salette wanted to know why they were not privy to the "behind the scene" goings on. They implored the other four to allow for further discussion in Executive Session. Not surprising, the vote was 4-3 for "no." In a last ditch effort, Salette tried to allow David to have 5 more days to help in the transition. "No." Not approved, 4-3. These unscrupulous four wanted David out IMMEDIATELY, and they did just that.

One big question was never answered, and I can't answer it now. I can surmise, but that's it. If David was OK on Sept 16, what could he have done that was so egregious that on Sept 23, these four made sure that he was forced out?

The simple answer appears to be--- Absolutely Nothing, but remember, he could and obviously was, terminated WITHOUT CAUSE.

Finally, why would Loomis want David out? Loomis will only say, "it was issues."

I will tell you this, Loomis had in in for David for some time, because, as we noted, he, Loomis wants total control. I have witnessed first hand how Loomis operates since he took over as mayor some ten years ago. He got away with it, especially during the days that Chuck Sweet was Town Manager and the council was only five. When it grew to seven in 2004, Loomis found it a little more difficult in controlling a larger group.

Then in 2007 David got promoted to Manager and in 2008 Bill & Salette were elected.

Loomis made an all too telling remark during a meeting a few months ago. He said, in essence--- I was always able to read the council's mind in the past, but I can't read this council's mind. That was because he now had to deal with the likes of Bill, Barry & Salette, three intelligent people that won't be intimidated by Loomis and his bullying.

What also was so obvious to those who are close observers is the fact that David, with his vast knowledge and intelligence gravitated to those with similar attributes. That was a factor with Carter going "off the deep end," as he saw David working more closely with the three than Carter could accept. Likewise, Loomis saw the same thing. David became not just an adversary, but a threat to him, and Loomis doesn't like those types of threats to his authority. So, much to his credit, Loomis waited until he knew the time was right He then struck like a venomous snake and David's days were limited.

That, my friends and neighbors are the facts as I believe them to be. Certainly there is some conjecture on my part, but until anyone can step up, not with rumor and innuendo, but evidence, we must all believe that Loomis, his 3 stooges and the Oro Valley police unions made our community a lot worse than it was when we had David Andrews working so hard on our behalf.

I hope and pray our citizens will not forget what Loomis and these 3 did to David, and to us, and nobody with any sense of fairness should consider voting for Loomis or any of the three that may be foolish enough to run.

I'm sure I speak for thousands of our fellow citizens when I say, "God Bless David Andrews, and we wish him our best."

Thanks for your indulgence.

Art

48 comments:

Unknown said...

I ask all to read both parts of Art's synopsis of the 'events' leading to the resignation of David Andrews; impassioned, yes, but also a methodical analysis and a very insightful presentation of those events along with the mindsets and 'processes' of the 'cast' members. Superb!

Everyone, please read the op-ed article titled "Public has right to know why officials were fired" published in today's Star's editorial section. It is an excellent portrayal of Oro Valley politics and contains an excellent suggestion for how the Town should "show them who's boss".

Victorian Cowgirl said...

This quote from the article Zev mentions sums it up:

"Elected public officials seem to forget that they work for US and the bosses have a right to know why one of their employees got the boot."

"The best way for the public to remind them who's the boss is at the ballot box. In Oro Valley, there's a good chance the four who voted to quit-fire Andrews will pay for their arrogance at the next election, if not sooner if threats of a recall materialize."

Kathy Pastryk said...

The article from the Tucson Citizen was written by Mark Evans who used to be Editor of The Explorer.

Art, you hit the nail right of the head. Your story rings true.

The Mayor played his lackeys like a string quartet.

Drag in THE LAW and we have one who quakes, one who salutes and one who runs his mouth off. A shameful ensemble of secrecy, corruption and contempt for the those who voted them in.

Victorian Cowgirl said...

Art,

"On the morning of Sept 23, at about 9:30 AM Loomis phoned David telling him he wanted his letter of resignation."

Loomis then made "two things VERY CLEAR to David. One was that Loomis had four votes to terminate David, and two, that Loomis had four votes to not have to go into Executive Session."

Question: Although it's abundantly clear that Loomis et al knew they had the 4 votes in advance, did Loomis actually admit that to David?

boobie-baby said...

Art,

Thank you for your lengthy recitation. That took a considerable amount of time and research.

However, we still do not know the contents of the letter that allegedly went to all Council members prior to last Wednesday's meeting.

Do you have that letter in your possession? Are you in a position to release its contents so that we may judge for ourselves whether the information in it is sufficient to justify the removal of Mr. Andrews?

These questions are asked with all due respect. I do not know what is in the letter; I have never seen a copy nor has anyone revealed its contents to me.

artmarth said...

In response to cowgirl--- go back and listen to the audio of the meeting.

Listen to our friend Bill Garner say to Loomis ---and I'll paraphrase----
Who gave you the God given right to walk into that man's office and demand his resignation?

Loomis, sounding like a scared rat about to be caught mumbled some half-assed response.

Also, listen to David who responded when Bill asked what took place the morning of 9/23.
David responded coherently and straight forward.

I'll ask our readers to judge who they would believe---someone that comes across as a scared rat, or someone that has a reputation for being honest with tons of dignity?

I will let it go at that. If anyone wants to step forward and challenge my take on this, they are more than welcome to so.

boobie-baby--- may I remind you that you alluded to that "other shoe to fall" in your earlier comments, and then you backed off stating you never saw that anonymous letter.

It is not up to me to release any letter. May I suggest you file a Freedom of Info with your friends in Town Hall, and I suspect you'll get a copy. In that way, hopefully you'll agree that the letter was full of nothing other than innuendos ----speaking of "full"---let me say it was full of crap.

Lastly, don't be surprised if the anonymous letter writer is identified in the near future. Don't be surprised either if it is "someone" that had no other reason to send the letter, than to harm David.

Nombe Watanabe said...

boobie, we are still waiting for the other "high heel" to fall.

DMilliken said...

Typical of how our government on all levels is not trusted by the constituency! Its not even shenanigans, down right criminal behavior legacy of the Lomis terms of mayor pulling this type of stunt with council members as Art has laid out didn’t respect him in the past.
I need to correct VC statement, “elected public officials ignore they work for us and the bosses have a right to know why one of their employees got the boot”. What is worse is the whole council didn’t have the full story and were denied further elaboration explaining these egregious “issues” by the four.
We need a change and individuals that think of the whole, (the town of Oro Valley) not their political power, special interest or individual aspirations.

boobie-baby said...

I cannot file a public records request for private correspondence that was sent to individuals' homes.

How did you receive a copy?

Can we be the judges of whether it is full of innuendo and "crap"? (your word, not mine. I don't talk or write like that). Is there something in the letter that you're afraid of?

What friends in Town Hall?

Oro Valley Mom said...

"13-3004. Sending threatening or anonymous letter; classification

"A person who knowingly sends or delivers to another a letter or writing, whether subscribed or not, threatening to accuse him or another of a crime, or to expose or publish his failings or infirmities, and a writer or sender of an anonymous letter or writing calculated to create distrust of another or tending to impute dishonesty, want of chastity, drunkenness or any crime or infirmity to the receiver of the letter or to any other person, is guilty of a class 2 misdemeanor."

In other words, either:

1. The writer of this alleged letter is either an anonymous criminal

or

2. The letter does not contain any allegations of failings or infirmities calculated to create distrust or impute dishonesty, lack of chastity, drunkenness, or any crime or infirmity.

In either case, why would any council member put any credence in the writings of an anonymous criminal? Or alternatively, if there was no accusations in the letter, then why should it make a difference?

Clearly, Art's version of events reveal much about David's dismissal. Thanks again, Art.

OV Objective Thinker said...

Once again I will reiterate that I support David. He has however been a victim of this Town Council several times in the past few months. He has also created some of his own problems. Having said that, I'll tell all of you that the biggest reason that Art doesn't release the letter is not only does it provide sufficient reason for David's judgement to be questioned, but IF IT IS TRUE completely disgraces another member of the Town Council that Art bows to. I'll leave it at that.

Art, I would submit to you that another reason the letter was sent was to inflict harm on the other individual and David is once again the victim.

The entire situation is a total embarassmet to our Town.

Oro Valley Mom said...

Once again, OVOT, there are only two options:

Either:

1. The contents of the letter are the rantings of an anonymous criminal.

or

2. The letter does not contain any allegations of impropriety.

You obviously believe that the letter does contain allegations of impropriety. It is therefore the ranting of an anonymous criminal. Any council member who would choose to dismiss an 18-year employee based on the rantings of an anonymous criminal would be engaging in an illegal reason for termination. That, I submit, is why none of them will say. They will incriminate themselves.

artmarth said...

boobie-baby--- Let me make this as clear as possible.

I will not argue with an anonymous person (you) that had the audacity to call me a bigot and now tells me what I should do while you hide behind your veil of secrecy.


boobie--- you want to continue a dialog with me? Let's do it on an equal playing field where we both know who the hell each of us is.

I'm fed up with anonymous people making false accusations.

Enough of that crap! (My word, not yours!!!)

boobie-baby said...

Again, it is my understanding that there is nothing in the letter that would rise to the level where the author would be considered a criminal. As I posted earlier, the Pima County Attorney's office reviewed the letter and determined that its office could not prosecute under 13-0004 since there were certain First Amendment issues that overrode the content of the letter (the content of which, I might add, has not been disclosed by Art).

And, again, I have not seen the letter nor do I know its contents. But I have reason to believe that OVOT may be close in his opinions.

artmarth said...

OV Mom--- Regardless of all the innuendo about this letter,it was NOT the "rantings of an anonymous criminal," as you noted.

It was however, a CRIMINAL OFFENSE, as the Az law is quite clear as it pertains to mailing these types of letters.

As for Cox, who also thinks he knows more about this than anyone, as usual, he is wrong.

Whether the letter itself is made public, I don't know. What I do know is this. Those that have a need to know---know two things---the contents of the letter, and the identity of the letter writer.

The motive of the letter writer is also known, although you won't hear that person say so.

artmarth said...

loomis, carter, kunisch & abbott-- here's my challenge ---(small letters, as you are small people)

You four obviously had good reason in your own (warped) minds to throw David Andrew's life in such turmoil.

Instead of all the CRAP you are spewing about "issues," come out and say what these damn "issues" are.

How ludicrous is it for you people to say, you don't want to hurt David, but you had no problem forcing him out and besmirching his reputation?

What further harm can you cause? The people know why this came about, and that is why David is now held in even higher esteem, and you four---especially you loomis---are looked upon with total disdain and disgust by the 1000's of decent people of Oro Valley.

artmarth said...

boobie--- If BS were gold, you'd be a multi-millionaire!

You & cox ought to spend more time together. You have a lot in common!

Oro Valley Mom said...

Boobie,

You said, "As I posted earlier, the Pima County Attorney's office reviewed the letter and determined that its office could not prosecute"

Yes, I remember that you posted that earlier. I have not heard that from anyone else, so I asked you then, and I ask you again: how do you know this?

Nombe Watanabe said...

Art, one reason I do not post my true name on this blog is that you never know when the police might put you under surveillance because of your postings. I know you have commented on anonymous bloggers in the past, but given the viewpoint of the police union(s), is it not wise to keep your identity hidden?

NW

Dan said...

In my humble opinion, I note several things. First, from the perspective of the Pima Co. Atty’s Office, the anonymous letter either 1) does not violate ARS 13-3004, or 2) (and this will not be received well by many on this blog) the Atty’s Office determined it was not worthy of seeking prosecution. This could be due to limited resources in the Atty’s Office, little evidence linking an ascertainable author to the letter, or given the current case load at the Atty’s Office, the letter was determined not to rise to a high level of priority.

That said, any council member who based his or her decision to not renew Andrews’ contract based on the contents of an anonymous and unverifiable letter is ill-advised in the greatest sense of the phrase. So many industries preclude anonymous complaints or letters from being considered in the professional discipline or termination of individuals, so why would the publicly-funded town council act so greatly to the contrary?

For example, an attorney cannot face disbarment based on mere speculation or anonymous complaint. The State Bar understands that in order to seriously consider disbarring an attorney, the complainant must be KNOWN and not anonymous.

Second, after listening to the council meeting, it becomes clear that Andrews was effectively removed without cause. This indicates that even the council (through the town attorney I presume) did not believe ANY allegation in the letter could be substantiated to a sufficient degree to warrant the removal of Andrews WITH cause. The town attorney certainly informed the council that relying on the letter and innuendo alone to remove Andrews would subject the town to an unfavorable legal outcome.

As such, the council proceeded WITHOUT CAUSE, where Andrews would be entitled to a sizeable severance package under his contract. While many on this blog disagree with the council’s decision (myself included), removing Andrews WITHOUT CAUSE is perfectly legal, but given the circumstances, it is imprudent.

LACK (Loomis, Abbott, Carter, and Kunisch) state that “issues” brought about their action. We all know now that any such “issues” on the part of Andrews were certainly not illegal (or he would have been removed WITH cause), and because LACK has been unwilling to provide even a redacted basis for their decision, town residents are only left to conclude that LACK’s decision was based solely on the allegations made in an anonymous letter.

These allegations are so weak that they cannot rise to the level of justifying Andrews’ removal with cause, yet OV has 4 council members comfortable enough to make employment decisions based on such information. Such decisions on the council have become a true liability for Oro Valley.

Dan said...

Regarding my prior post: I do not know for certain whether the Pima Co. Atty's Office did review the letter. I have based that premise on prior posts of bloggers on this blog. This may have been unwise. If anyone has any information to substantiate that the Atty's Office has reviewed the letter, please indicate such. Thanks.

artmarth said...

For those not familiar with Az Revised Statute 13-3004, here it is.

"13-3004. Sending threatening or anonymous letter; classification

A person who knowingly sends or delivers to another a letter or writing, whether subscribed or not, threatening to accuse him or another of a crime, or to expose or publish his failings or infirmities, and a writer or sender of an anonymous letter or writing calculated to create distrust of another or tending to impute dishonesty, want of chastity, drunkenness or any crime or infirmity to the receiver of the letter or to any other person, is guilty of a class 2 misdemeanor."

Is it a crime to send a anonymous letter as described above? Is there any doubt about the law?

Any reasonable person that reads the letter and reads the statute will say what I have been saying, regardless of what SOME my think.

Aside to "dan"--- thanks for your astute, unbiased input.

Aside to "nombe"--- Most of our bloggers use pseudonyms and that's perfectly fine. My issue is those individuals that choose to use a "special moniker" and proceed to refer to me as "a bigot" or a "despicable human being."

"Me thinks," that says more about them than it does about.

Unknown said...

After the meeting of last Wednesday, David Andrews was pretty explicit relative to his objection to Kenneth Carter's intrusion onto his (Mr. Andrew's) property.

Trespass - definition (one of several) Merriam Webster:

"A wrongful entry on real property"

Now, even if Carter had a key to Mr. Andrew's property and was granted access for a particular reason at a particular time, would Carter not be then guilty of 'criminal' trespass if, at the times he placed himself upon or within Mr. Andrew's property, he had not received specific permission to do so? Did Mr. Carter have an 'open invitation'
to 'invade' Mr. Andrew's property rights? If not, I would assume that Mr. Carter himself perhaps was in violation of the governing
trespass law(s).

Dan?

Victorian Cowgirl said...

Thinker,

On one hand you said that the letter PROVIDES SUFFICIENT REASON for David's judgment to be questioned, but on the other hand you said, IF it is true, completely disgraces another member of the Town Council.

How can it provide sufficient reason when there is still a big IF as to whether or not it's true?

Dan said...

Zev: Good question. I’ll do my best to convey what I know.

Whether Carter is guilty of trespassing is dependent on the terms of the agreement between Carter and Andrews. If Andrews gave Carter his house key to take care of his home while he was away on a repeat basis, then by Carter using his access to Andrews’ home to snoop through Andrews’ personal property, Carter has undeniably committed a trespass.

If however, Andrews allowed Carter blanket access to his home for whatever purposes Carter saw fit, proving Carter has committed a trespass would be much more difficult. It must be demonstrated that Carter acted OUTSIDE his granted scope of access given to him by Andrews. Your observations on the matter are right on.

The issue can become more complex if Carter’s snooping was indeed outside his granted scope of access AND in an effort to further the purposes of the Town Council. In this event, Carter, acting within the course of his duties as an OV Town Council member and under the color of the Town Council, has violated Andrews’ 4th Amendment right against unreasonable searches and seizures.

If it can be demonstrated that Carter went through Andrews’ personal belongings under the direction of a Town official, Carter has acted as the OV government itself, and Andrews’ constitutional rights were violated.

That said, there are still so many unclear facts preventing me from stating with certainty that any constitutional rights were violated in this matter. I am not privy to the Carter-Andrews agreement, nor am I aware of the motivations or direction Carter employed when he allegedly rummaged through Andrews personal effects.

Further, even if Carter acted under the direction of other Town officials in snooping through Andrews’ home, issues of sovereign immunity would come into play, and COULD preclude liability on behalf of the Town if Andrews sought legal remedy in court.

Let me make this clear, my input in this blog post is based on much speculation and unclear facts—for what it’s worth.

Eileen said...

Part 2 of David Andrews Removal as Oro Valley Town Manager
It is a fact, readily admitted by the Oro Valley police, that their union representatives wanted David out. Why, you ask? For no other reason than they think---and, at this point, they damn well may be right---that they run Oro Valley. Remember, David, working for the best interests of the people of Oro Valley believed the police who have by far the biggest budget---about the same as every other department cumulatively, fought "tooth & nail" so as to not allow even one of their own to be cut back, even though other departments had to.

To me, this is a major problem! The Oro Valley Police need to be held accountable by the Mayor and Town Council. The Oro Valley Police cannot and should not run our town. Elect new officials that will represent us, the people, not the unions!

Unknown said...

Thank you Dan, your reasoning is exceptional.

Richard Furash, MBA said...

Thank you, Eileen.

Your thinking is "spot on".

Victorian Cowgirl said...

Speaking of the OVPD running the town, does anyone wonder why they had Andrews' house under surveillance when he apparently is not guilty of any CRIMINAL activity?

If he were guilty of criminal activity, the council would have stated that and would not have given him a severance package. He would also have been arrested, yes?

So, in other words, we the taxpayers are paying the OVPD to run surveillance on someone who was not even suspected of criminal activity. Perhaps Loomis couldn't get him on criminal activity or poor job performance so he went after his personal life instead.

If the OVPD has time for this nonsense then apparently the OVPD has too much time on their hands. But I thought we had to keep every single one of them employed because, you know, "The Mexican Drug Cartels are Here! They're in our Neighborhoods!"

I wonder how many drug cartel deals went down in OV while our police were busy investigating Andrews' love life?

Yup. Love life. When I tally up all the "clues" that's my take on this ridiculous soap opera for which I'm still searching for a title.

As My Stomach Turns
One Life to Ruin
The Bold and the Vindictive

Victorian Cowgirl said...

I should clarify my prior post since it might be misinterpreted. I'm not saying that I believe that anything "unseemly" took place. I'm saying that all it takes is for one person to "cast aspersions" and the next thing you know, fiction becomes fact because perception is reality.

Richard Furash, MBA said...

We have completely removed certain recent comments because the comments stated unsupported, possibly slanderous allegations regarding what might have been a reason for David's resignation.

Our Terms of Use (available on the left column under "Comment On Our Postings") clearly delineate the following:

"Any decision to remove a comment is entirely at our discretion. We do not have a responsibility to remove a comment.

We may remove a comment for any reason. Situations that arise that may cause us to remove a comment include, but are not limited to: Slanderous,libelous, copyright infringing, just plain hateful speech, profanity, criminal comments,stolen content,
personal attacks, or comments unrelated to the original posting."

Thank you for understanding.

You are terrific bloggers!

OV Objective Thinker said...

Zeeman...

The removal was not for that reason and you damned well know it. There were no slanderous remarks made only guesses.

As usual this blog only wants one side of the story.

Shame on you and your feathered partner.

Nombe Watanabe said...

Thinker. What do you have against cross dressing?

J Egar Hoover
Milton Burle
Mayor Guliani

The list goes on. Methinks you protest too much.

PS. Thank You For Your Support of Mr. Andrews. See you on Holloween.
I can't wait to see your Mae West get-up.

OV Objective Thinker said...

To All,

I sincerely hope that the following is not lost on all of you. It clearly defines the real Art Segal.

I have no doubt that KC made all of the comments Art has alluded to. He (KC) has made worse comments to me.

But what I find VERY INTERESTING is that Art Segal has known KC for a long time and has had this knowledge a long time. And yet HE STILL SUPPORTED AND LOVED KC. Only when KC voted on a couple of things that Art didn't like did Art turn on him like a snake.

In my opinion Art Segal has zero integrity. And if you just give him enough time he shows it. He should be trusted as much as you would trust our government to spend money wisely. Look at his track record.He has turned on Paula who he strongly endorsed. He has turned on Dankwerth who he supported. He turned on Culver who he endorsed.

Who is going to be next? Zinkin and Zev?

Victorian Cowgirl said...

Thinker,

On one hand, you strongly seek objectivity, but on the other hand, if Person A turns against Person B whom they initially supported because Person B has changed, then you say that Person A has no integrity.

But isn't it showing objectivity (and guts) to walk away from someone that you previously and publicly supported?

I also supported Abbott, Carter, Culver and Dankwerth in the past but when I saw that they either weren't what I was expecting or they initially WERE what I was expecting but then they changed, I ended my support of them.

Does this mean that I have no integrity?

OV Objective Thinker said...

VC....

My comments were directed at Art Segal and no one else. If I wanted to include you in that category I would have so stated.

KC is what KC is. And as long as KC voted the way Art wanted him to vote, then all of KC's bad qualities were OK in Art's mind. As soon as KC makes a couple of votes that Art doesn't like he turns on KC like a rabid dog. You see VC, Art doesn't give a damn about morals, about ability, or about character. All he cares about is whether you will vote the way he wants you to vote 100% of the time so he can run to his computer and report that he is the 'KING'. Art Segal is nothing more than an egomaniac. The lack of integrity comes into play by supporting KC in the first place knowing what KC was like and continuing supporting his bad behaviors as long as he votes Art's way.

I have no problem with someone withdrawing their support for an elected official if thay say one thing in a campaign and then do the exact opposite. That's politics. You may not agree with everything, or anything, I say. But I am pretty consistent.

I would suspect that Paula Abbott and KC have voted the way you wanted them to vote 90+% of the time. That's a pretty good track record for most folks.

artmarth said...

Cox mouths off again and all it proves is that he can't think clearly as he sits and types. Why? Because his brains are being compressed, as it is obvious, his brains, however small, are in his ass!

OV Objective Thinker said...

Zeeman and Art.

Where is the policy now?

OV Objective Thinker said...

Art...You never fail to fall into the trap.

That's what makes my job so much fun!!!

LOVE.

artmarth said...

cox---your"job" is obviously to prove you are a simpleton.

You prove time and time again, how successful you are at your "job."

Terry Parish said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Terry Parish said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
artmarth said...

Note to our readers--- The above two comments from TERRY PARISH were removed because they were malicious, personal attacks against another person.

Parish, as an officer of the law should certainly know better than to defame another person's reputation for no other reason than vindictiveness.

Parish should also recall that some time ago, during his tenure on the OV Council, I removed comments from this blog that alluded to his personal life.

For him to write what he did here is unconscionable and I believe action from the Sheriff's department may be in order.

My apologies to those readers that may not have seen the comments, as I will not be any more specific.

OV Objective Thinker said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
artmarth said...

Comment from Cox was removed because he once again violated our credo, and as it pertained to the two comments I removed by Parish.

Cox can say what he wants about me, but personal comments about others with not bve tolerated.

Art

Terry Parish said...

Art,

Thank you for deleting whatever it is you are talking about. I didn't send anything to this blog. I recieved a call asking me what I had written my reply nothing.

I have been taking care of my kids and sick wife. Frankly I'm too busy.

I have changed my passwords in case someone had figured them out, but whats to stop anyone frome using my name or yours as a pseudonym to post a message.

I would certainly not endanger my job for this blog. This incident illustrates for me how and why blogs can be dangerous.

PS If it has my name attached just delete it because as I said its not me I'm too busy.

artmarth said...

To Our readers---- I believe most of our readers, with the exception of only a couple, have greater than average intelligence.

Therefore, we will let everyone decide how much credence to put into this last comment by Mr. Parish.

Art

OV Objective Thinker said...

To all.

If you would like to see what I posted please post your e-mail address and I will be happy to send it to you.

Once you see what I posted you will understand that mr. Segal simply cannot tell the truth and his censorship on this blog is nothing but political.

LOVE!!

PS> Because of the style of the writing the subject posts by Mr. parish may very well have been a fraud. Segal probably posted it himself