Looks like Oro Valley is enforcing its sign codes. In a Daily Star article, outgoing Planning and Zoning Director Sarah More notes a compromise with business that, if acceptable to Town Council, would require non 24 hour businesses to have their signs off by 10PM.
We wonder why anyone would object to this.
Its good for businesses because it saves electricity; good for astronomers [who can only work at night]; and good for the environment.
Are we missing something?
19 comments:
Most businesses in this town close at 5 PM. So why do they need their signs lit up at 10 PM or 3 AM? This isn't New York City. An owner of a financial services company said, "We need our signs on. We want people to know that we're here." But you're NOT THERE at 10 PM, are you?
I'm so sick of business owners always thinking that their needs trump the needs of residents. We pay taxes, too, and we don't get the tax breaks that businesses get!
Business owners "bombarded" the Chamber of Commerce complaining about the "sudden enforcement" of the existing sign code.
KEY WORDS: Existing sign code.
How dare the town enforce its codes!
Why do these people always think that ordinances and town codes don't apply to them?
They claim that their businesses are already hurting in a slow economy. Do they really think that having their sign lit up at midnight is going to make a dent in that?
The same business owner said, "I don't think Oro Valley is being receptive or friendly to businesses."
But it was the residents who complained about the signs being lit up beyond the allowed time-frame and OV needs to be "receptive to residents," too.
He also said, "It makes me mad because we paid for the sign."
But you KNEW about the sign code when you paid for the sign. It was YOU who decided to circumvent the sign code.
The town holds a lot of blame in this problem. I too think that there should be no reason for the signs to be lit up late into the night but I also think that the town needs to be consistent in their enforcement of codes and not let violations slip by unenforced for a long period of time and then all of a sudden start enforcing.
These codes should have consistently been enforced in the past. These business owners knew the rules and should have been following them.
At this point the town needs to enforce the codes but allow the businesses a period of time to get themselves into compliance.
VC gives a thorough commentary to this subject. I would only add (or enhance) that any businessperson who wishes to or does business in any given community reasonably should know, in advance, terms and conditions as required by ordinance; if an operation cannot operate under same, then said business either should operate elsewhere OR is most probably doomed to failure anyway. Signs are NOT deemed to be advertising (a commonly accepted concept in most communities) and thus, if the hour of operations cease at a given time, so should the illumination of signage.
It appears to me, once again, that by sticking it's neck into this issue, the NPCCC is grabbing at straws perhaps in retaliation for the denial of the funding that they requested from Oro Valley OR they have no other 'creative ideas' to keep themselves alive.
The compromise of allowing for signs to be lit until 10pm is a very generous approach. At 10pm in Oro Valley, very little traffic exists anyway. Many townspeople live in places that overlook business areas; why must they be exposed to the garishness that signs create past that time. I can imagine that there are some within the OV Marketplace that would like to have their signs lit to take advantage of Walmart patronage; this is silly as late night Walmart patrons are, for the most part, simply Walmart patrons. In fact, late night patrons of restaurants, too, are generally not interested in 'window shopping'.
To those who are in or are contemplating going into business, or to their employees who will utilize any and every excuse for failure, get a grip and either learn how to do business or forget it. I managed to succeed in it for over 40 years.
Ezak, you are right (I was writing my post while you posted yours so I might have been a bit redundant in some areas of thought).
If I were king, I would give the business a break.
I would say, I hear you. I will allow you to keep your signs on until 10:30.
Now quit bitching.
For those interested, the Arizona Daily Star opined that the town should enforce the code.
Click here to read their editorial.
I would suggest that many of you look at the requirements of the zoning code. It may be very informative. The code insures that night lighting does not interfere with any night light activities, (viewing the stars) and it requires(at great expense) that the lights be subdued so as not to interfere with the above stated activities or residents in the area. In other words the code insures that there will be be no overall adverse effects during periods of darkness.
I would also suggest that we find out how many complaints have been filed about the 'bright lights'. I suspect there are between few and none.
Therefore that begs the question why turn them off at 10 PM?
Those of you that have never run a small business that is dependent on 'drive-by' traffic have no clue to the effectiveness of having a lighted sign late at night.
This is just one of the anti-business codes that should be reviewed and changed. You and I cannot afford to do without their tax revenue.
I would love to hear your comments.
Sorry, OVOT, I have had retail businesses in Cupertino, California, Santa Clara, California, and Raleigh, North Carolina - ALL required 10 pm 'lights out'! Most municipalities consider that signs are NOT TO BE CONSIDERED AS ADVERTISING; when a business is closed for business, signage is therefor not necessary.
Thinker,
My two cents :)
The code was there before the business and so like others posted they knew what the codes were or should have known and if not then how can they run a successful business if they don't do their homework. Plus you being a real estate person I am sure you would advise clients to check same.
Ok, supposedly word of mouth is the best advertising and when the better half and I decide to use a business or contractor we ask around for opinions.
I can't imagine that people are driving at night and checking out the business signs.
If they are driving , especially at night I hope they are paying attention to the road and not gawking at signs.
The town of Ov also has that shop OV first or whatever its called with the business navigator feature, more should use it.
Another thing if it is a business that is well known, like a chain store, people are not going there because of the lighting they go because they already are familiar with that store or business.
If there was any evidence at all that having the signs light up later at night brought revenue to the town then somebody needs to bring forth the evidence.
The rest of us also pay taxes and have to abide by the rules so business should try to be a good neighbor also
In addition relative to one of your comments, OVOT, what business is DEPENDENT on drive by traffic that 'just happens to be in the area' gawking (as mscoyote aptly puts it) at signs late at night? If THAT is what they think they depend on for business then that mentality has no business being in business. I've been in a business where signage is important, and, drive by business does help, but not those drive-bys that are out and about past 10 pm.
Has anybody thought about saving the electricity that lights these signs?
Our "carbon footprint" desperately needs reduction. Has anybody considered "global warming"?
I certainly do NOT choose a business by driving around looking for lighted signs late at night.
One of the attractive elements of Rancho Vistoso is the darkness of night....I resent people who have to leave on bright lights and use electricity for no reasonable purpose!
Ditto, Val!
I have a friend who owns a construction business. His office is attached to his home. He does not have a sign on the property. He has never even advertised his business in the yellow pages or any newspaper. All of his jobs have come through word of mouth. He's been in business for 30 years. He's never been without work and yet he has NEVER advertised! Because his work is high quality and he's easy-going and personable, he is highly sought after. Every time he does a job for someone, they give his business card to all their friends and family members. Even in this economy, he is busy.
Do you know how I found my hairdresser? I saw a woman with a very well done haircut and I asked her who did her hair. She handed me her hairdressers business card. I did not choose my hairdresser because she had a sign lit up at midnight.
What these two stories tell me is that reputable businesses stay in business through referrals, not through all night signage.
And I agree with Vistoso Val about the waste of electricity for something that is not necessary. How in the world did the blacksmith, or the saloon, or the general store, or the barber shop, ever stay in business prior to the invention of electricity?
Last evening I drove by several OV businesses. The lights were blazing when the businesses were closed. No sense in that. The only compromise I would offer would be a 75% reduction in the brightness after business hours as a crime deterant.
Without any illumination, there might be an invitation to undesirable activities. The police would have the statistics on that issue to determine if parking lot lighting alone would deter activities such as vandalism, drug use or B&E.
In past storefronts that I was involved in, the signs were required to be shut down at 10 pm. Yes, we left some MINIMAL lighting on within the operation which was a partial deterrent to potential 'harmful' activities - the other deterrent, an alarm system.
It appears from the crying game about which I have read that business owners no longer know how to do business! There is a thing called advertising - yellow pages, newspapers, mailers, etc. Signage, when closed - USELESS!
All of the complainants reasonably should have known what the rules (not guidelines) were when they decided to 'land' here AND the Northern Pima County Chamber of Commerce should stay the hell out of campaigning to break these rules!
Consider that the Town's Zoning and Operations rules as being akin to 'restrictive covenants'. Don't move into a neighborhood which has a set of strict CC&Rs and then, after you purchase a home, defy the requirements.
Once one 'variance' is allowed, then comes another, and another, and another - gradually eroding the WHOLE spirit of the general locale. ORO VALLEY WAS ONCE GORGEOUS, THEN IT WAS BEAUTIFUL, THEN IT WAS NICE....WHAT NEXT?
Nothing gets a community going like two issues: signs and animals. Just look at the posts here over the past 2 months.
The Town acted properly in enforcing its own codes. Like Zev, I was in private business with NO street signs for decades, and somehow I managed to survive and prosper.
For safety purposes, businesses may wish to consult with OVPD about leaving lights on inside a business at night--easier to see the bad guys.
But signs? Sorry, Chamber members, but you're going to have to take some other routes to attract and keep your business clients.
You're absolutely right, altho it was not being enforced, businesses knew what the code was when they started up. However, I'll go so far as to say that it is reminiscent of totalitarianism. Another example of the "state" having no limits to its power.
I wonder what the "unintended consequences" to OV will be? Loss of businesses; more unemployment; higher taxes. I promise you, there will consequences. It may be as minor as TEP charging residents more because of the loss of revenue.... Does anyone remember being told to conserve water and then have our water bills go up?
Ms Coyote, are you going to tell me that you've never noticed a business' sign on your way home from a night out - perhaps someplace you drive by regularly but because of traffic, or hubbub of a busy parking lot - you had not noticed before? I certainly have - many times, usually my husband is driving and I can "gawk".
While we're on the subject of the sign code, whatever happened to the copper patina signs businesses were supposed to have in OV? I've noticed that Fry's is back to red. I, for one, thought it was classy and set us apart.
Oro,
my comment about driving at night and business signs was part of a response to OVOT's post, specifically where he brings up the point of being a small business owener, etc, signs,
Ok, I don't make my selection of a business based on their sign,regardless of the lighting!!!
And I do hope people are paying attention to driving, especially at night.
So if you can notice signs at night what purpose or point does that make?
Does that entice you to use that business if they have a sign light on in violation of a code?
Oro, you make a couple of reasonable points especially regarding the Fry's application; this is what happens when a 'variance' is granted to ONE (Target); others usually will press to follow.
As to your equating zoning ordinances to totalitarianism, this is a stretch. In the 1860's Brooklyn, NY required a certain 'strip' of businesses to conform to certain restrictions. In 1916 New York City adapted the first 'generally applied' zoning regulations. The constitutionality of zoning regulations was challenged in 1926 in a case involving Euclid, Ohio; the case went to the Supreme Court and the constitutionality of the zoning concept was upheld by said Court in 1926 - thus the terminology, Euclidian Zoning. Freedom is not an absolute; absolute freedom is anarchy. Freedom must be accompanied with responsibility!
As to your reference to "unintended consequences", this is open-ended guesswork. I will stand by my prior stated opinions relative to 'business successes'. To use an old expression, WHEN TIMES ARE TOUGH, THE TOUGH GET GOING.
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