The Explorer writes about the fact we reported previously---On Nov 19, the Oro Valley Council approved the General Plan Amendment for Arroyo Grande.
Read the Explorer article her.
http://www.explorernews.com/articles/2008/11/21/news/doc4925963b3b0be250009795.txt
39 comments:
So Paula doesn't like the plan's high standards and requirements put on developers. That's to bad that most here in OV would like to stop the cracker box bedroom communities that she seems to be encouraging in this article.
Sorry, I should have added the quote.
"Abbott objected to policies included in the plan that add development requirements to the area above what town zoning rules already require."
Enough said.
While I believe that the majority of the council has good intentions and is working hard on this new development/plan, I am cynical as h ll.
Developers seem to always want more and more, I think 99% of them are greedy xxxx!
Look at Vistoso Partnrs they have
promised so much in the way of open space natural desert area, yada yada and yet I see they are always asking for amendments to zoning and in the past they seemed to easily get what they wanted
Hopefully this council will just say NO to Vistoso Partners
Say a developer like Vistoso goes into Arroyo
Grande, we are in for years of Vistoso running the town instead of the other way around
What made the State all of a sudden decide they need to sell that particular property? I think that a developer requested it, some type of behind the scene request, I could be wrong, just saying. And If I am right, that probably spells trouble from the get to
Truly sad that we keep destroying what is different about living here in Arizona
Kids in the future will ask "what is a desert or natural open space"
And for anybody who wants to criticize my opinion, go ahead, I admit I am no expert but I think think most of us moved here for the desert type environment not
more and more development and traffic, etc
I also think that Paula has the best intentions for us and for the environment and will say no to developers, let's hope the rest will not let the developers run the show
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
What exactly has Paula done for Oro Valley?
Perhaps others will see fit to respond, but as one who has been watching & listening to our town council's for the last 15 years, I'll offer the following:
Paula Abbott has her critics, as we all do. However, since being elected for the first time in 2002 Paula has remained true to her principals.
How many of us could have and would have continuously taken the heat of standing alone and voted in what she felt was the best interests of her constituents.
During that time-frame,until KC got elected in 2004, there were more 4-1 votes with Paula being the lone dissenter who was looked at with total disdain by the balance of the council.
No, I do not agree with Paula all the time. Yes, I believe Paula was on the wrong side on a few issues, but until you "walk in her shoes"---whoever you are, it's really too easy to chastise her.
From my standpoint, we are lucky to have her as a voice of reason for the last 6 years and fortunate to have her speak for so many of us----especially during those years when there was no others.
As far as I'm concerned, Paula Abbott has, and continues to be a positive force for Oro Valley residents.
Agree with you Art. Endthehandouts is asking what has she done
Well without doing a research of voting records I can't recall exact votes but I will say that a good majority of the time I say I agree with how Paula votes and I trust that she is always looking out for the best interest of the citizens
I trust her and also give her a lot of credit for having the courage to keep trucking when it was her vote against a good ole boy network who usually sided with whatever the developers desired
To Paula I say go girl and we are lucky to have you
I guess my point is not about voting. It's about the work to make the right decisions. I’m fairly new here, but I didn’t just fall off the turnip truck either. I was pretty involved in my past community working directly with my town elected officials. Since moving here, I have been paying attention to the council and what they do, not just how they vote.
I have attended many study secessions, P&Z, and DRB meetings and Paula has been absent. From my count, she has the worst attendance record of any of the other council members. I can only conclude that her personal involvement in driving the direction of the town is as lacking.
I have been impressed with the real work other council members have done, especially in a pretty short time. Six years is a long time to not have a record other than voting.
What will her legacy be?
"endthehandouts"--- Were you here in 2003 when Paula was the ONLY one who voted against all of the in excess of $40 million in---of all things---THE HANDOUTS to the retail developers.
The fact is, she couldn't stop it on her own, but good for her for trying!
Were you here when Paula said a 75' hotel did NOT belong on the east side of Oracle road below Pusch Ridge--- that was approved?
Were you here more recently when Paula said the code did not allow for a hotel, no less, a 60' hotel at Innovation Par that was approved?
Were you here the multitude of times when Paula voted to save open space, to not allow the ravaging of the desert for the benefit of one developer or another?
Were you here the many times Paula tried---in some cases, in vain, to look out for the school kids?
Were you here when Paula initiated and worked on the holiday parade, when others wanted no part of it.
You want to talk about a legacy? Paula Abbott, as the longest serving council member may not attend every meeting or every function, but, as I said in my previous comment, she has been, and continues to be a positive force for her constituents.
A parade. Huh. That's nice.
There were three elections since Paula voted against the $40 million tax breaks. Paula had opportunity over a 5-year span to form coalitions and to recruit and promote candidates to join her, but her political skills and energy have not been effective, as evidenced by the record of her accomplishments.
It wasn’t until Council members Latas and Garner came on the scene in 2008 that handouts and corporate welfare were ended in Oro Valley. The latest Council meeting certainly doesn’t make Paula out as a martyr for open space considering her objections to the General Plan Amendment that had more requirements to protect environmental concerns and open space from development than any other State Trust Land sale in history.
Regardless of my views of Paula, which I try to be objective and not subjective, Al Kunisch is much less effective.
Anyone who doesn't think it was an accomplishment to sit up there with Dick Johnson, Bart Rochman, Warner Wolfe & Mr. Loomis for 2 years, and generally be a voice of one, ought not speak unless they're prepared to say, "I could do that."
Lest we forget, it didn't get much better with the likes of Conny Culver, Helen Dankwerth, Terry Parish & Al Kunish, having only KC Carter on your side for the most part.
Those that think they could have or would have survived those conditions might not want to face reality.
Good for Paula and her perseverance!
I repeat--- I'm thankful for the service she has rendered over generally very difficult circumstances.
So what I'm hearing you say, Art, is that Paula was unable to accomplish anything under the last two councils and what I'm saying is that she is unable to accomplish anything under the current council.
I guess we agree: only a record of voting against things and no real accomplishment.
endthehandouts, you really need to
look at the whole picture Paula for a few years was the only voice of the people on the council and if you judge her or her record on not being able to change the minds of the rest of the good old boy club then you are or were looking at mission impossible
Paula has consistently voted to represent the views of the people who elected her and the rest of the citizens and did not bow her head to
whatever the development community wanted
In the past, Paula has tried to bring up agenda items for council to discuss but was usually knocked down by the boys in charge
You seem to have a bone to pick with her Can I ask why? Would you rather have members of the old boy club back in charge, not me, no way, never again
mscoyote---It appears that endthehandouts is basically saying; "I made up my mind s don't confuse me with the facts."
Perhaps the pseudonym this person has chosen is not accurate, considering Paula should be the poster person for trying to end the handouts!
Some things make more sense than others.
No, I don't want the old guard. I like the make up of our council considering there are some willing to do the hard work it takes to really govern. I wish a couple others would follow that example than we might not have to set through three hours of grammar class arguing about “should, shall, and must.”
To be able to do that, it takes more than showing up and voting; yes, I believe anyone could do that.
The bone I pick is based on my observations that some members are carrying the brunt of the load and Paula is not. Her position on Arroyo Grande was enough for me to point this fact out. I have seen her lack of preparation before, but her position to not passing this landmark environmental protection because there just wasn’t enough detail in the plan was completely off track and untrue.
At this time in our town history, we don’t need dead weight. There are going to be some major issues and all hands should be on deck. Unfortunately, there are those who think they can skip class and still pass the test. The election is only a little more than a year away and a little team work could be a benefit for anyone looking to retain their seats.
endthehandouts and others:
Starting with the first post on this stream, I cannot see how a conclusion was brought to bear that Paula [was prone towards cracker box communities] and/or that the plan, as worked out, would necessarily result in a guarantee of high standards. So, let's be realistic - this plan, as so dilligently worked out by those involved in it's progress, was one that I believe provided the best that can be had at this juncture. Yes, there may be some
loose strands still hanging out there, but those are going to have to be, as I have stated before, ironed out, if possible, at some future time.
Paula, while not always in total clarity in communicating her assessments in certain instances, has most certainly been a peoples advocate and, for this, deserves much commendation. I believe that, relative to her positions this past Council meeting, she could have been perhaps more concise and simply stated her reservations in order to accentuate her reasons for not voting for the amendment; this could have been accomplished by enumerating a lesser embellished list of doubt, and one which I believe could have been more effective in holding the attention of the audience. On the plus side, I believe that, by asserting her 'list', Paula was able to make her reservations a matter of public record and, in the end, that could be a good thing.
Endthehandouts, you seem to imply that everyone on Council should jump on a 'prevailing bandwagon'; I couldn't disagree with you more. Dissent should be honored, not scorned. Individuality should be encouraged, not discouraged. Questioning the status quo should be admired not admonished. The last Council was a 'sheep' council and it was voted out.
Was Paula right or was Paula wrong?
While I personally agreed with the concensus of the majority vote, Paula was neither of the above; she was simply Paula and spoke her own truth.
endthehandouts,
There is a big difference between the words "shall" and "must." A few years ago, I asked my real estate agent to put something in writing in the agreement between myself and the buyer. She refused to do it insisting that it wasn't necessary. I still remember her exact words....."The buyer has agreed to it and the bank has agreed to it so you won't have any problems at all." Guess what happened next? BIG PROBLEMS over the very wording that I wanted included that I was told wasn't necessary. So I know how important "wording" is and I've been a very difficult person since then when I'm asked to sign something and I'm not comfortable with the wording. I absolutely refuse to sign off on it until the change is made. So I understand where Paula is coming from on this.
Zev--- Once again, thanks for your astute observation concerning this issue.
All I can add is "Amen."
In the spirit of Art's most recent post, we should be thankful for a wonderful community--not perfect by any means, but full of people trying to make it better.
As for Council member Abbott, I believe that we should be thankful that she has been on the losing side of many 6-1 and 5-2 votes because the "principals" for which she takes her stands are usually unlawful. That is to say, if her arguments were to sway a majority on the Council to vote the same as her, the Town would be embroiled in lawsuits up to its turkey gizzards.
She reminds me of a restaurant reviewer who enjoys the entire meal but finds the parseley garnish to be insufficient. Therefore, she gives the entire restaurant a bad review.
Paula has never learned to work toward consensus. Her phone message line is always full, and she virtually never visits Town Hall to pick up her mail (I'm told). She's often woefully unprepared and seems to want to focus on the color of the curtains on the Hindenburg rather than the fact that the ship is on fire.
Nevertheless, smarter heads prevailed and the GP amendment moved forward. For that, we should give thanks on Thursday and hereafter.
Boobie baby,
If you are not of legal authority absolutely then your comment regarding Paula's 'advocacy' must be regarded as being without merit. Come out of the closet b-b so we can know whether or not to take you seriously when you state opinion as statement of fact. Otherwise, have a happy Thanksgiving.
Zev--- Once again, the "Boob" raises its ugly head. We should not be surprised by these anonymous comments from one that called me a racist for suggesting we can expect crime to increase, especially at the Marketplace once the buses start running here from south Tucson.
To suggest that Paula's positions on voting against 75' & 60' hotels that violated zoning codes and being against those foolish giveaways to the likes of Vestar to bring us a Walmart are not only ludicrous, but plain ignorant.
No wonder, the "boob" refuses to be identified!
How easy it is to find fault with others while hiding under the veil of anonymity!
When a member of an elected (legislative) body considers the application of a person or company that has met all of the conditions as laid out by a municipal code and/or other requirements imposed by the municipality, that elected body has no choice but to approve the application. At that point, the elected body's job is ministerial, not legislative.
However, time after time, we have witnessed Council member Abbott vote to deny an application just because she didn't like the type of enterprise or for some other reason that is not spelled out in the municipal code.
This has happened with the City of Tucson that ended up losing in court because its Council members did exactly what Abbott frequently does. She knows that she can get away with it because there have almost always been enough votes to approve a development that has met all of the requirements. So, she gets to say that she stands on her principles, no matter that they would not hold up in court.
You don't have to be an attorney to understand that.
Admitedly, she doesn't do this ALL the time but a sufficient number of times that the pattern is easily recognized and virtually predictable.
However, unlike others, I do not believe that she does this out of malice. It appears to come more from a lack of understanding or a failure to seek consensus with her fellow Council members.
The amazing thing to me, legalities aside, is how some OV residents bow at her feet as the great representative of the people. This has been more pointedly discussed by other bloggers on this thread. When you pull back the curtain on the Great and Mighty Oz (aka Abbott), you'll see that someone has been fooling you.
Boobie---- Fine---You made two points recently. One, that I'm a racist, and now your negative comments about Paula.
That's all well & good.
Now, instead of remaining anonymous, why not have the courage to identify yourself, so people might know who has such a wealth of knowledge that they can state without reservations what others feel?
Of course that's asking too much. It's just to easy to criticize
others knowing you're well disguised.
b-b, your analysis is not only flawed, it appears to come out of the mind of a self-adulating know-it-all. Your legal 'presentation' is a lot of hooey as very little of 'law' is set in stone, even if it might seem to be when it might be convenient for you. Do you not recognize that this Town and it's past 'officials' have played footloose and fancy free with the written word, the so-called LAW? Why pick on Paula? Why not throw in the bunch that has constantly flaunted what appears to be many governing edicts? Get specific, boobie, or end the mumble.
B-b, for me you have become merely a biased bundle of uncontrolled self importance. Once again, get out of the closet or get off your high horse. Yes, I know, utilizing a blog moniker is usually an acceptable practice. However, in your case it simply diminishes your credibility into that which would fit into a thimble. Your posts profess that you are of authority; prove it! While I would concede that you appear to 'know' much about 'everything', your temperment indicates that you are a zany piece of work.
Your recipe seems to be:
Take some drivel
Add in some mud
Drizzle in a few facts
Throw in some rage
Mix well and let it stand
VOILA, BOOBIE, YOU THINK YOU HAVE BAKED A CAKE.
Yeeech, you need some cooking lessons!
You know, I'm not a lawyer but I might play one on TV.
But here's the thing I don't understand. If Paula had a problem with the should's and shall's, why didn't she just make a motion to change the wording to her liking?
One of the councilmembers, Salette Latas, removed an electrical substation from the wildlife corridor with an amendment. I thought that was pretty savvy.
But it seems like Paula went in there with her mind already made up that she was going to vote no, and she dragged the rest of us through three hours of grandstanding.
I guess I shouldn't be suprised of those that come to Paula's defense considering I share a similar oppinion about the past councils that most do on this blog. However, that is the past and we need to look forward. Given her performance recently, I wouldn't be so supportive of her.
eth
While you are representing that Paula spent three hours granstanding (an exaggeration to be sure), why are you taking up so much space on this site blasting her? A bit hippocritical eh?
I do have to agree that whether you agree with Paula's political views or not, she regularly appears unprepared at meetings. Whether a council seat should be occupied by a member who fails to take the appropriate time to prepare or not is definitely a legitimate issue.
i dont think artmarth is ever going to get over being called a racist.
each time the boobie surfaces his or her head, we will see the wack-a-mole.
as mick jagger said, you cant always get what you want, right paula?
AZ Cactus
Whether or not you agree that Paula is this or that, there seems to be an inordinate amount of time picking on her. She's not running for any office at this time so enough has been said and it's time to let it go. If this kind of stream, along with a previous one, is going to be a Town character disection site, then let's go at it. How about our Mayor? How about Al Kunisch? How about Bill, Barry, Salette, KC, our Town clerk, our Town manager, our Town whatever? So far, I haven't heard one word about any specific that Paula enunciated at last Council; so, what's the beef - Paula or the issues she raised?
How about this for a poll question?
Who would you rather represent you on the council; the recently defeated Helen Dankwerth, Terry Parish, the present Vice Mayor Al Kunisch, or Paula Abbott?
I'll answer first. Give me Paula any day, without a doubt!
My comment was focused solely on Paula's lack of preparedness for meetings. I am not comfortable commenting on any specifics, so I have withheld such commentary. Her failure to prepare is a legitimate concern.
Thank you Endthehandouts and Nombe for turning the discussion back to the facts rather than to ad hominem attacks or discussions regarding my anonymity.
We should be focusing on the performance of the Council members, not on the qualifications (or lack thereof) of contributors to this blog.
Art and Zev can wear out their fingers castigating me for not identifying myself. Don't waste your time, gentlemen--it just ain't gonna happen.
Instead, let's continue to talk about the issues and the decision makers. I wholly support Art's idea of a report card on each of the Council members, Town Manager, Town Attorney, etc., presuming that the grades are based on hard facts.
One could argue that elections are the ultimate report card. But I'd like to see Art add a regular feature on this blog (perhaps monthly or quarterly) where we can weigh in on the actions, inactions, effectiveness, preparedness, understanding and activities of these Town leaders. That would produce much more interesting and reasoned discussion than trying to brand me with names like "boob," "wimp," or "zany."
In other words, let's focus on the message and the facts, not the messenger and her or his "qualifications."
A reasonable approach?
I'll second that.
endthehandouts
If the 'messenger' is not qualified, than the 'facts' offered can not be reliably accepted as fact. Ponder b-b's last PARAGRAPH next to 'it's' (her's/his) last sentance for a moment; the two components are generally and reasonably considered to be incompatible! As to the rest of 'it's' blurb, b-b has continuously and contenciously talked the talk but doesn't seem to care to walk the walk.
b-b
I haven't [worn out my fingers castigating you for not revealing yourself], I have NOTED it ONLY (and VERY infrequently) when you have presented yourself as an 'authority in fact'.
b-b and endthehandouts
So, it's ok to make up a monthly report card on the Town officials, but it's not ok to make up a report card on those that are 'grading' them? Kind of a double standard isn't it?
And by the way endthehandouts and b-b, I do enjoy the more informative side of these streams but I will continue to critique anything and anyone when I deem it fit to do so. AND, I WILL use 'poetic license' if and when I deem it to be appropriate also.
Zev,
Your point:
“I do enjoy the more informative side of these streams but I will continue to critique anything and anyone when I deem it fit to do so. AND, I WILL use 'poetic license' if and when I deem it to be appropriate also.”
You point sounds very similar to our critiquing Paula.
She’s wrong on her standing against the GP amendment. If she would have educated herself on this, things would be different. Unfortunately, she is failing this community by her stubborn strong headed approach which she thinks is covering for her ignorance of the FACTS.
eth
Understand that in no way am I
attempting to dismiss out of hand that criticism which has been directed towards Paula; in fact, if you have read other posts of mine, you will know that from my own viewpoint, I too had disagreed with some of her choice(s) relative to how she presented her opposition.
Now, my injecting the 'subject' of 'critique' was not pointed towards OPINION, valid, wanton or otherwise. It was introduced in response to and directed at the high-and-mighty, blustery, many times erroneous, and hypocritical blathering of one 'boobie-baby' who carries forth that he, she, or it is the Town expert generally WITHOUT citing truly digestable authority. Once this person has 'judged' the rest,it then smugly reverts to the 'let's stick to the issue mantra'; and that persona and self-contradiction, eth, is what makes me nauseous.
I think you mean "nauseated" rather than "nauseous."
(Sorry--couldn't resist. Must be the English teacher in me...)
According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary the manner in which I utilized the term 'nauseous' appears to be an acceptable one -
sorry, teach.
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