In her letter in the May 15 Az Star, our neighbor Mary Reilly aptly describes what many of us believe: Wal-Mart will "sleazify" our community.
Thanks Mary for using a great descriptive word to say what 1000's of us believe.
Wal-Mart wasn't wanted
Thanks Mary for using a great descriptive word to say what 1000's of us believe.
Wal-Mart wasn't wanted
Re: the May 9 letter "No beauty in a Wal-Mart store."
We who live in Oro Valley felt that way, too, when our lovely area was "sleazified" by the invasion of Wal-Mart. The only difference between El Con and Oro Valley in the matter is that Oro Valley residents were outright lied to and mistakenly voted for Wal-Mart's entrance into Oro Valley.
At least Broadmoor residents know what's about to set up shop. We didn't.
Mary Reilly
Histologist, Oro Valley
19 comments:
Ok what the hell is your problem with WalMart.
The higher gas prices go and the more the US Dollar is worth less and less the more we need stores like WalMart. The millions of dollars is taxes that will go into the coffers of Oro Valley will be welcome.
I am sorry I need an inexpensive place to shop to counteract the other higher prices.
I guess all of you are so rich and mighty that you do not care about your money.
If you are so loose with your money I will provide a bank account and I will accept your extra money that you have just lying around.
WalMart is not Nordstroms and their is "sleeze" potential. However, I have been to many a nice walmart in Scottsdale and other such places.
Finally, there are alot of fixed income people who greatly benefit from the WalMart. From employment to cheap perspection drugs.
So remember to be objective before you throw around words like sleeze.
To answer your question, "What the hell is your problem with Wal-Mart?"
(1) Because they pay such low wages and pitiful benefits, their employees are forced to get State aid (Wal-Mart actually tells their employees to apply for it).
According to a Congressional Report released in Feb. 2004, each Wal-Mart employee costs taxpayers approx. $2,100 dollars for State-funded health benefits and food stamps.
A 200-employee Wal-Mart costs taxpayers $420,750 per year!
So the money you think you're saving at Wal-Mart is money that you just hand right back to the government.
(2) Crime rates are higher in neighborhoods near a Wal-Mart than near any other retailer, 10 times higher than Target stores, and 6 times higher for violent crimes.
(3) Wal-Mart decreases property values in surrounding neighborhoods.
(4) Wal-Mart routinely puts local business out of business with their predatory pricing policies.
(5) Traffic congestion (which leads to poor air quality), noise pollution, light pollution from lights on 24/7.
(6) Poor labor practices. Numerous lawsuits have been filed against them for forcing employees to work off the clock without pay, the largest sexual discrimination lawsuit in history (filed by 1 million women) was filed against them, numerous disability discrimination lawsuits have been filed against them. In Maine alone they were cited for 1,400 violations of child labor laws.
(7) Poor environmental track record including a history of Clean Water Act violations.
Any other bloggers care to add to this ever-growing list?
So you see, kkjon, just because a person chooses not to shop at Wal-Mart, does not mean that they're "rich and mighty." Sometimes it just means that we are well-informed and have a social conscience.
You said, "remember to be objective before you throw around words like sleeze." Wal-Mart engages in many sleazy practices, therefore, the word "sleazy" WAS objective.
Try to follow your own advice before you throw around words like "rich and mighty."
Welcome to our blog "kkjon.''
I must say you're 2 initial comments on WM are---if nothing else, somewhat controversial---which is fine.
I don't think I need say more. I'll let the initial post speak for itself, and as for anything else---"The Cowgirl" said it just fine.
kkjon,
Welcome and come back.
We need some new opinions.
The Cowgirl summed it up and said it all. She is on the ball and does her homework.
I am all for choice and that goes for shopping choice.
Do you think that Wal-Mart has a goal of giving you a shopping choice and lower prices forever? Nope I don't
Some places in our country have no
choice but to shop at Wal-Marts because Wal-Mart has done all it can to kill off local business.
So do you really think that if Wal-Mart becomes even more powerful you will continue to get those so called bargains. Nope I don't believe that .
Most goods and now services are not made or conducted in the good old U.S.A. So now we have lower wages and higher prices. How does this help you and me?
And No I don't just blame Wal-Mart, but they seem to be one of the biggest offenders.
Check out even the higher end clothing labels. Most are made in other countries. Are these higher end clothing lines cheaper because they are made in China and xyz. Hell No Bucko. they sold us on all this "things will be cheaper" idea. Not happening. Now things are made in other countries and they are not cheaper and more of your money goes towards buying cheaper goods made in China and elsewhere. Who wins.
Not us that is for sure.
So why should we shop at sleezy
stores like Wal-Mart.
My wife and I are SHOPPERS. Out of curiousity one day I breezed through a Wal-Mart store and took notes on some prices in their grocery department; comparing ORANGES to ORANGES I found that some of their prices were a bit lower and some of their prices were a bit higher, all in all the experience came out about even. Many stores like Kroeger/Fry's, Bashas, Safeway have a lot of private label stuff that offer savings over and above the 'name' brand items.
As to their toys, their bicycles, their electronics, etc., many are either manufacturers specials, made for Wal-Mart, discontinued items, less expensive versions and so forth. Read the story about the Snapper Lawnmower experience or the Claussen Pickle squeeze. Wal-Mart wanted Snapper to have a mower made off-shore with cheaper parts but with the 'Snapper' label; Snapper told Wal-Mart where to go. Claussen was 'asked' to produce gallon jars of pickles at an incredibly low price; Claussen
said NO. As a former retailer I can authoritatively state that, all things being EQUAL you cannot produce the SAME product for one company at one price and another company for a lower price. And, if you think that volume is the great price reducer, well, the old saying goes: if I am entitled to one profit on one item then I am entitled to two profits on two items. Think that retail margins are high? I suggest you find a way to get some company to show you cost, retail, vs net net; it isn't as pretty as you might think.
Kkjon, you sound angry that many are angered at a Wal-Mart going in where it's going. 'Victorian cowgirl' stated many merits of discontent very succinctly. I would suggest that you simply do a 'search' by typing 'Wal-Mart' in your search engine - then you might see another side that you have not seen or understood. One good site is 'Wal-Mart Watch'.
My wife and I watch our pennies,too, and can understand your monetary concerns; however,
one has to be cautioned about
the 'killing' of the free enterprise system by the gargantuan appetite of a single entity. Once again, companies are becoming monopolistic at an unprecedented rate and that is NOT good; economic fascism is not an option!
By the way, kkjon, if I was rich and mighty, I would have hired the best law firm my money could by and I would have sued Vestar for fraud and false advertisement.
What they TOLD us and what they SOLD us were two different things.
kkjon,
Wal-Mart will not lower the price of gas, they will not help the dollar become worth 'more' and I doubt very much that, if you are a 'smart' shopper, that you will find Wal-Mart much of a help in counteracting so called higher prices.
Though I understand fully the outrage over what has happened, the process took place before I arrived here so I will add one
unpleasant comment/question to those who were here - what were you thinkin'? Why were Vestar's other endeavors not explored? One only had to visit the Desert Ridge Marketplace in Phoenix in order to fortell what kind of a center this might become; so, you just believed, you got your referendum, and YOU blindly voted for a tax 'break'. You didn't study and you got your 'F'; YOU became a 'player' in Ostrich Valley.
It's time to move on and look at the situation realistically. To shop or not to shop at Wal-Mart, that's your choice. To shop or not to shop at all other 'fronts', that's your choice. To explore that which can perhaps force WM
to conform to other Town rules and regs, that's an option. To put in force a citizens OVM watch in order that crime does not become prevalent, that's an option. To view the traffic, road rage, etc. that may become a side 'show', that's an option.
At this juncture we have no alternative but to wait this one out. I, personally, will not take part in a general boycott; I don't shop at WM so I have no problem with that issue. But I don't see punishing other businesses that may want to be here. Those that fail will fail because of merchandise or demographics; those that will succede will do so for the same reasons.
Well I understand all of the problems with WM and its horrible track record with the community and its seriously delinquent problems with health insurance.
However, in the end WM is not the issue.
OV dropped the ball.
I think this is just a way to divert the blame onto an entity that was legally allowed into the community.
OV was the one that allowed all of this to happen.
I applaud your right to boycott anything and everything.
However, it seems that WM just becomes a large target that you all can rally behind. Remember many communities have passed "anti-Wal-Mart" laws, yet OV did not!
I think it is naive to think that what is now a large intersection of Tangerine and Oracle would not eventually have a WM or something like it.
I would propose that that intersection could have been something worse.
I emphasize for those people in the palisades. They home values are have been jeopardized for sure.
In the end WM is not sleazy, it is just a place you can patronize or not.
As for me I will be shopping there.
Whether or not WM survives depends on simply economics. If more people think WM is sleazy than think it is useful, then it will be gone inside of 5 years. So let it run its course and the laws of economics will prevail.
And as for the residents of Marana and Catalina, I will gladly accept their tax money into OV.
Finally, would you have the same problem with HOME DEPOT, LOWES, FRY’S MARKETPLACE, SUPER TARGET, FRY’S ELECTRONICS, THE GREAT INDOORS, etc.?
So is it just WM that you do not like or anything that is more than 100,000 square feet of retail space.
As I see it could have been any of these Mega Box stores and they all would have had the same effect.
One thing kkjohn, looking to the future, if, and it's a big IF, development occurs as hoped for by certain 'society seers', you can be assured that once a population number is reached, a center WILL be built to the North as Catalina along with Southeast Pinal County grows and grows. So, in the long run do not count their tax dollars for our coffers. As to Marana, there are two large centers in the works at the corners of I-10 and Tangerine Road as well as those centers (along with a Wal-Mart), already established. Maranans will shop in Marana; Catalinans will shop to the North, and little Ostrich Valley will be overbuilt with retail and nobody will come (don't count Arroyo Grande just yet). We are a Town of around 45,000 right now; just drive around and check out the empty storefronts - along Oracle (several adjacent to the Wal-Mart grocery store), Steam Pump Village (not only empty fronts but a halt on expansion as originally planned), Sun City corner of Rancho Vistoso and Del Webb, 1st and Tangerine (opposite safeway), the corner of LaCanada and Lambert; and they are planning more, more, more! There's only a certain amount of TAX dollars to be had, it WILL be finite and we will have been had.
Zev,
To answer your question, what were we thinking when we approved the Vestar deal and why weren't Vestar's other endeavors not explored?
SOVOG (Stop Oro Valley Outrageous Giveaways) was thinking quite well and launched a massive campaign to put the deal to a vote via a referendum and then they informed voters of what would happen if the referendum passed. They did investigage other Vestar malls and knew that Wal-Mart would end up being the anchor.
To counter this advertising campaign, Vestar came out with a campaign of their own, but of course they have a lot more money than what SOVOG could raise, even though the 3 major grocery stores in the area got involved and donated thousands to SOVOG. So Vestar inundated OV voters with slick, colorful ads that arrived on a daily basis for weeks, maybe months, and they even sent a DVD to each home showing us how wonderful OVM was going to be.
They even stated that those of us who were against it obviously wanted "an Anywhere USA mall" because that's what we would get if Vestar was not the developer. And of course, many uninformed people followed the bright shiny objects (Vestar's fliers) and voted to pass the $23.2 million dollar referendum. And then Vestar began announcing a long line of Anywhere USA stores, including the Wal-Mart anchor. And now all those "uninformed" people are angry that they were hoodwinked. I wasn't one of them, however. I did my Vestar research and KNEW EXACTLY what we were getting.
But too many people were swayed by the Vestar media blitz. Money talks.
kkjon,
Once again you contradict yourself. You said, "Well I understand all of the problems with WM and its horrible track record with the community and its seriously delinquent problems with health insurance."
Then you said, "In the end WM is not sleazy." You keep speaking with forked-tongue.
It's not sleazy to sexually harass women? It's not sleazy to force employees to work off the clock? It's not sleazy to use child labor? It's not sleazy to avoid paying millions of dollars in taxes? It's not sleazy to force yourself into a community where you are not wanted? It's not sleazy to sell toxic products to unsuspecting customers? It's not sleazy to expect taxpayers to foot the bill for health insurance and food stamps for Wal-Marts workers?
And no, we would not have fought against the other "mega box" stores you mentioned. However, most of them are already nearby and they wouldn't have opened a second store in such close proximity. Costco was mentioned. Vestar was silent. Ikea was mentioned. Vestar was silent. A natural foods grocery store was mentioned. Vestar was silent. Dillards and other high-end dept. stores were mentioned. Vestar insisted they wouldn't come to an outdoor mall, yet Dillards is opening at an outdoor mall in Casa Grande. Vestar ignored all ideas submitted by the residents because Vestar is a front for Wal-Mart and Vestar was lying to us when they asked for our input as to what stores we wanted. They were just playing with us to make us THINK they were going to consider our wants/needs when they KNEW that Wal-Mart was the deal all along. So Vestar is just as sleazy as Wal-Mart which is why they work so well together!
Vestar pulled the same stunt in Stockton, Calif. promising them an upscale mall and then trying to shove a Wal-Mart down their throats. But the Stockton city council had backbone and passed an ordinance against big box stores. The OV town council doesn't have that same backbone.
VC thanks for the extra info. I did know that SOVOG put a lot of effort into attempting to educate the citizens as to what might happen, and, for those who chose to become aware voted against the giveaway. I guess hindsight is 20/20, as it is said, and I guess I'm in wonder as to why more teeth were'nt put into the actual restraining of the project in some way. The referendum, as I understand it, was simply a vote as to whether or not the developers were to be paid a stipend for blessing us with a shopping center. Yes, the propaganda was a con job in order to 'get the money', it was designed for that one purpose and one purpose only. But the defense seems to have been designed to stop only that purpose. I suppose a lot of what is known now, relative to the parties involved in the con, was not generally known then. And, incidentally, the attitude of the then and current council has not changed - the screwdriver is still in use.
To me, it hurts that our Country, which at one time virtually sustained itself, has now so integrated itself with the global economics concept and has done so at the expense of our citizenry. Fuel, autos, toys, food, electronics, our peace of mind, self-sufficiency - we had it ALL; now we are at the mercy of those who would destroy us, our soul, our guts, our temperment, and the companies like a Wal-Mart, for the sake of personal greed, aid and abet these destroyers.
Yes, that's the clincher. The referendum asked voters if Vestar should receive $23.2 million dollars of our sales tax money in return for building this mall. But the Vestar propaganda machine convinced the voters that they were getting an UPSCALE mall with UNIQUE shops and that it would NOT be an Anywhere, USA mall. That's why people voted to approve the deal and that's why everyone is so angry now. Who in their right mind would pay $23 million for a Wal-Mart?
SOVOG tried hard to warn them that this is what would happen because this was Vestar's M.O. but Vestar was slick, the Master Deceiver as Ms. Coyote once called them. That's why I call them Satan! Satan will promise you whatever he knows you want in return for something he wants, in this case, $23 million dollars. Then he double-crosses you, gets what he wanted out of the deal and you get nothing but sorrow and feeling like a damn fool for believing him. Thankfully I wasn't one of those fools, but I'll still suffer the consequences of their stupidity.
It was interesting that kkjon mentioned pharmicals being so inexpensive at Wal-Mart. Well, if you trust them, which I don't, you can acquire the same drugs at the same inexpensive cost at Fry's or Ike's. I feel much safer shopping there. Wal-Mart has a very bad reputation for their items causing illness etc. For example, their recall of pet food where they were a majof distributor of toxic meals for pets and thongs which caused rashes just to name a few. Their clothing may be very inexpensive, but, they don't hold up so, you are forced to purchase more to replace the other items. So much for saving money. You get what you pay for and you can pick up better quality elsewhere for around the same price. Wal-Mart is not that good of a deal. By the way I am also on a fixed income and watch my pennies. I shop smart, but not at Wal-Mart. Oh that rhymes
At one time Wal-mart bragged that everything Wal-mart was USA; now there is very little USA at Wal-mart. If Wal-mart were a country, it would be the eighth largest trading partner with China in the world. Don't care? You will when we outsource our government.
JUST IN
RATINGS ON MASS RETAILER PHARMACIES
(Consumer Reports)
1) KMart, score 88
2) Shopko, score 88
3) Target, score 87
4) Sam's club, score 86
5) Costco, score 85
6) WAL-MART, SCORE 79
Once again Wal-mart comes in at the BOTTOM and by a LARGE margin!
Wal-Mart Before:
Made in America with pride.
Wal-Mart Now:
Made in China with poison.
"finest outdoor retail center in the state" words used to describe the new mall. I kid you not that is what Mr. Malin of Vestar said.
Do these people really believe their own bs?
Also something was said about a cultural aspect.
Honestly , whoever writes their PR is so full of it.
I would ask that Vestar at least give a real or true accounting of the names of the stores going in the mall. Each section of their web site and all their PR gives conflicting
info.
They can't even coordinate that.
I don't have much hope for anything nice.
Then again, maybe all they are sure about is the Wal-Mart.
Now that would not surpise me.
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