Following is Phil's response to that letter.
Wal-Mart is not unique destination
Re: the May 22 letter "Some in Oro Valley welcome Wal-Mart."
The letter writer says, "There are many of us who are happy to see it (Wal-Mart) come." There are many more of us who oppose Wal-Mart (more than 3,500 citizens signed a pledge not to shop at the Oro Valley Marketplace if Wal-Mart is the anchor) because of the $23.2 million sales-tax rebate the town gave to the developer, Vestar.
In order to sell the community on the rebate, the developer, several council members and some town staff promised the voters an upscale and unique destination shopping center. Then they announced that Wal-Mart would be the anchor store.
Many more of us in Oro Valley oppose Wal-Mart because of its predatory pricing policies and the mistreatment of its associates.
We are very angry at being lied to by the developer and the town. Perhaps the new Town Council will listen to the majority of its citizens.
Phil Gibbs
Retired, Oro Valley
46 comments:
Mr. Gibbs states, "Perhaps the new Town Council will listen to the majority of its citizens." This comment causes me to consider the ramifications of the recent election. While I personally refuse to believe that the recently ousted council members were intentionally complicit with the developer to mislead their constituency; the message sent to the mayor and those council members who did not stand for reelection is clear, "Work diligently to understand the will of the community and then do the people's work." Thankfully many of us in OV have awakened. Our interest and vigilance has been piqued. Good luck to the new council as we all work together to make this the best darn town in AZ!
While perhaps not intentionally complicit, there is a term for those who might allow for behavior which goes against the grain of 'social acceptance'; that would be the state of being an 'enabler'. There is absolutely no question in my mind that the Town knew full well what was occurring in ALL respects and either encouraged it, abetted it, ignored it, went out of their way to diminish it, or whatever, thus 'enabling' it to happen. Those who went before Council and might have taken an 'anti' position were ridiculed and/or dismissed in many ways and some of those 'positions' were, without question, intentional. And yes, there were the not-so-good individual as well as collective personality traits that did enter into the equation - aggression, elitisim, narcissism, thirst for power - these are just some of those characteristics that manifested themselves within the Town governance. As one who has had the pleasure of assisting, albeit to a limited degree, the 'overthrow' of that status quo, I am certain that the mood, the accountability, the practice of inclusion, the attention to the 'written word', etc., will be a refreshing and positive nature of this new Council.
And to you, fromdatundra, your well versed participation in the postings within this site are most welcome.
Social acceptability is the operative phrase. I would encourage those citizens, dedicated to honesty and fairness, who fearlessly stood in front of a mayor and council and were subsequently "ridiculed and/or dismissed", to demand a formal letter of apology from the Town Council. As a former public servant (fire board commissioner, councilperson, and mayor), I am keenly aware of the responsibilities carried by a Town Council, and the pressures that can come to bear in times of contentious debate. However, above that, public meetings must be conducted with decorum and evenhandedness. We all deserve nothing less. Certainly, the voters have spoken through the democratic process; however, those who were publicly offended should be publicly acknowledged and absolved. Thanks to you, and all of the vocal citizens of OV for your diligence and dedication to our town.
It is refreshing to see debate. As all of you know I encourage social intercourse but emphatically state that it should be factual.
I commend Tundra for his/her statement regarding Terry and Helen with regard to their intent to mislead. It simply didn't happen and those of you who wish to hang on to that belief simply fall into the radical segment of this and any other population.
If you look at the statements in the three previous postings you will see a continuum of statement that are based on 'feelings' and 'emotion'. Few statements have any fact based content. That's OK. This is a blog and there are no rules for fact versus emotion.
What will be factual is how the Oro Valley Marketplace performs... how much positive revenue is produced. I suggest this will and should end the discussion on whether the project was "the will of the people".
If the project is a failure and fails to produce a positive revenue flow for Oro Valley, which was the only goal of the Town Council, I will stand in the middle of the Oracle and Tangerine intersection with a sign that states, "I was wrong.", until the Oro Valley police Department runs me out of there.
I challenge the rest of you to do the same if you are wrong.
Mr. Cox---- No matter how many times it is said, your failure to understand the facts is mind boggling.
The opposition to Vestar was twofold.
1) Giving them our future sales tax revenue was foolish, and a decision made without too much intelligent thought as to ramifications.
2) The deception of Vestar & Malin suggesting OV would be getting an "upscale, unique" shopping mall has gotten thousands of their supporters to now understand they were snookered.
Certainly, there will be millions of dollars in revenue generated, but you fail to acknowledge that much of it will be cannibalized from those retailers that give 100% of sales tax to the town. At this monster marketplace, Vestar will pocket almost half.
Also, don't forget the major shortfall of revenue from Steam Pump Village & Oracle Crossing, two other recipients of our giveaways.
If we had a Town Council then as we will have in a week, with people with business sense, we wouldn't have this situation on our hands.
To use the argument that the land was sitting vacant holds no water. That property would have generated more interest if we had an Economic Development Administrator that did his job, rather than say---in effect, "Come to Oro Valley. We'll give you millions of dollars to do so."
Collecting a dollar from this place and giving back 45 cents, while collecting a dollar from other retailers, and keeping it all, is not positive revenue. Can't you understand that?
The proof, as they say, is in the pudding--whether you buy the pudding from Wal-Mart or somewhere else. The tax incentive is a done deal--initiated and approved two Town Councils ago. Either it will work or it won't. My educated guess is that development on that corner would never be as far along as it is without the incentive, so let's see how much sales tax revenue the retail outlets bring in and what the costs are (e.g., police, etc.) after the stores have opened. Sales taxes will be the saving grace for the Town since home permits and other revenue sources are going, going, gone.
By the way, for all of the bloggers who oppose Wal-Mart for very good social reasons (salary and health care for workers, part-time employment to avoid paying benefits, etc.), how many of you have checked your personal portfolios to see if any of your funds include Wal-Mart in their holdings. Would you be willing to sell those funds? Just curious--In the interest of complete disclosure,I own a few Wal-Mart shares outright, but I bought them about 10 years ago, long before the OV debate, but the fact that I have such miniscule ownership doesn't impact my opinions about the Vestar development.
Anyway, let's see a show of hands from among the bloggers who have checked out their current or retirement portfolios for Wal-Mart holdings.
Boobie-baby,
My portfolio invests only in companies with a social conscience. I have had this portfolio for almost 15 years. I put my money where my mouth is.
Thinker,
You frequently talk about people making decisions based on emotions rather than fact, and you clearly are against this type of thinking.
Guess what? Vestar's campaign was designed to elicit people's EMOTIONS, to get them to vote for the referendum based on emotions. Those of us who voted against it, did so based on the FACTS, such as knowing that all of Vestar's malls are run-of-the-mill malls with Wal-Mart anchors. Those who voted in favor of it, did so based on the emotions that were conjured up through the use of Vestar's slick colorful fliers and DVD.
There were no facts in their marketing campaign. Oh, sure, there were "projections" but projections are not fact, as we've already seen with Steam Pump Village and Oracle Crossing.
Thinker,
May I suggest that you read, "The Political Brain." You will learn the following:
Quotes taken from the website:
The idea of the mind as a cool calculator that makes decisions by weighing the evidence bears no relation to how the brain actually works. When political candidates assume voters dispassionately make decisions based on "the issues," they lose.
That's why only one Democrat has been re-elected to the presidency since Franklin Roosevelt—and only one Republican has failed in that quest.
In politics, when reason and emotion collide, emotion invariably wins.
Elections are decided in the marketplace of emotions, a marketplace filled with values, images, analogies, moral sentiments, and moving oratory, in which logic plays only a supporting role. (NOTE: This is precisely how Vestar won THEIR campaign!)
Westen shows.....through fifty years of American presidential and national elections, why campaigns succeed and fail.
The evidence is overwhelming that three things determine how people vote, in this order:
(1) their feelings toward the parties and their principles
(2) their feelings toward the candidates
(3) and, if they haven't decided by then, their feelings toward the candidates' policy positions.
OV OT
Please refer to a prior post of mine, in part giving definition to that which is in fact 'fact' (it was within a response to your post relative to Barry DiSimone). Just to clarify, in this current post I stated an opinion; I did not make or pretend to make a statement of fact except that I did personally experience objectionable behavior from the Mayor and observed other members of council being dismissive or agressive towards others (including themselves) and that was my own realization of fact. Yes, I did give my personal assessments of Council and it should be obvious to you that these words were my of own choosing.
OV OT, you keep up the mantra of 'fact', 'fact', 'fact'. Have you ever experienced a 'gut feeling', 'intuition', the 'smell of a rat'? Well a lot of those instincts have a lot more validity than YOUR 'facts' do. Perhaps you need to experience a little more 'feeling and emotion'; you then might be taken a bit more seriously. Yours is a constant grind of me, me, me; I've seen you, heard you, read you and it ain't pretty! Maybe YOU just don't get it!
I have often told Art that he should compensate me for making his blog so popular. Postings sit with few comments until I jump in. But that's the fun of it so I'll keep doing for free.
Art...
You, as usual sit up on the hill (that some developer cleared) and appear oblivious to what is really going on at the bottom of the hill. Two developers came and looked at Tangarine and Oracle, saw the problems and opted out. There may not have been anything there today if Vestar had not offered to go forward with the support of a tax incentive. That was stated many times by Town Staff, consultants and many other far more knowledgeable about those matters than you or I.
EVERYBODY in this town, that followed this entire process, knew there was a great possibility that a Wal Mart may be part of the mix.Cowgirls comment clearly states that she had a clue. Maybe you were one of the few that didn't. Most, if not all, of the petition seekers mentioned Wal Mart as part of their script when gathering signatures. So STOP hiding behind the "unique, upscale" shopping experience. The outcome was obvious!!!!!
The "cannibaliztion" is simply a Doug McKee/Chet Oldakowski red herring. There has been no solid support brought forth that this will happen. How many businesses closed when the Wal Mart in Marana opened. Here is the answer...none. Check their (Marana) revenue stream and see if Wal Mart has helped or hurt their bottom line. I have. I have looked at the numbers and I know what it has done. You do some leg work for a change and stop just throwing dung on the wall to see what will stick. You continue to post the same lame argument and nothing FACTUAL to back it up.
Lastly to reinforce your inability to grasp facts, is your statement about "positive revenue". Re-read your own statement and I think, even you, will understand that it makes no sense.
Cowgirl....
I am sure that your portfilio manager only invests in securities after he/she has checked into their hiring practices, conducted a complete benefit analysis, etc. RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT!!! Do you own any Citgo stock? Or how about some GE stock? :-)
As I recall the Vestar CD had several people (OV residents) talking about, additional shopping opportunities, shorter drives to buy needed products, people desiring a theater closer than the Foothills Mall, cleaner air as a result of shorter drives. These are not emotional statements. They wanted the Marketplace for those reasons. By the way, most of their comments are now even more accurate because of the price of gasoline. You want to drive more and further pollute our air with ethenol additives???
Zev...
I have had and strongly believe in gut feelings, intuition and the "smell a rat" theory. I have them frequently when I read some of the postings on this blog. Care to guess when I feel them the most???
By the way when are you going to post your apology to Bill Adler? I would have thought that would have been forthcoming after you learned some facts!!!
Thinker,
You said, "There may not have been anything there today if Vestar had not offered to go forward with the support of a tax incentive."
I would prefer that nothing be there. I would prefer to have kept the unobstructed view of the Catalinas and I'm sure everyone who lives in Catalina Shadows would agree with me. Soon they will be living in Wal-Mart Shadows. I would also prefer to do without all the additional traffic (and pollution) that will result when OVM opens. You think the air will be cleaner because of "shorter drives." I think it will be dirtier because of the increased traffic. More cars, more pollution. Less cars, less pollution. Why do you overlook that FACT?
OV OT
Many of your comments are getting more and more inane each and every time you post. As to Bill Adler and myself, while it's none of YOUR business, he and I are fine. As to facts, once again, you, the Lord High Scrambler of Facts, need to face them! Your degenerate references to each and all are most certainly a reflection of yourself, and that statement, dear thinker, is an emotional fact (lol). Oh, and by the way, thinker, you ARE a lot of fun - as most comics are.
Cowgirl.....
I can now better understand your true position. You wanted "nothing" on that property. Even if it fit your description of "unique and upscale" you truly would still rather have nothing.
Unfortunately, governments need revenue in order to deliver the services they provide. You or I could not afford to pay the bills if it weren't for the revenue generated by sales tax revenue. Therefore "nothing" was not a fiscally prudent option. And I am aware that you are a fan of fiscal prudence.
The pollution created by more cars will be offset, I believe, by the numbers who will have to drive less. Many of those who now drive to the Wal Mart on Wetmore, LaCholla or Cortero (through Oro Valley twice) will now stop here. That equals less pollution AND more tax money for you and I.
PS...Have to visited Spotlights Grille as yet???
Thinker,
I would rather have nothing than what we're getting. If the town needs revenue, they could have achieved that with something less offensive. Look at the shopping center in Tubac. It's always crowded. I've made many purchases there. And it's unique and doesn't have any garish signs. That's just one example of what could have been done.
I checked out the menu at Spotlights but it's not for me. You know, I'm from Oro Valley, therefore I'm an elitist and a snob. I prefer champagne and cavier. Hee-hee.
By the way, you always imply that emotion is a bad thing, especially making decisions based on emotion. So, how did you decide to marry your wife? That was one of the biggest decisions you ever made, and I'll bet it was made on emotion.
Thinker,
Forgot to mention, Zev made a comment about gut feelings and intuition. That's right. My gut feelings and intuition have seldom been wrong. I could give you numerous instances in my life where my gut feelings did not fail me. Therefore, making decisions based on emotion is a pretty good way to go. Oops, I just noticed that I misspelled caviar. The OV snobs will probably throw me out of the club now...
You prefer that nothing would be built. Dream on.
Anyone that buys by vacant land should expect building on it. It is not going to stay the same just because a few want it too.
Increased traffic. Have you seen the volume of traffic that comes down from way past the town of Oracle & down Oracle road?
Are you going to blame it on the shopping center?
All the protesters can just drive right by & creat your own pollution somewhere else & waste gas going to all of the high end stores.
It is being built. Get over it. Go plan another protest somewhere & if you protest the grand opening many of us will wave to all of you on our way in to shop at Wal Mart.
This thread has taken a silly direction. Of course the Wal-Mart is being built; some citizens of OV will shop there and some will not. Of course "vacant land" for sale will someday be sold. The land may then be improved for either good or ill. Time will tell. Of course tax revenue is the lifeblood of a town; without it most of us would live less comfortably. Of course, in many peoples' view, pristine desert landscape is preferable to asphalt and stucco architecture. I am one of those. However, the point I was making when I began the commentary on this thread, was/is that the current councilmembers and Mayor will now face an energized and more vigilant constituency. This can only be a good thing for Oro Valley; and must necessarily have a positive effect on land development through a more acute awareness by the good citizens of the town. Lastly, I attempt to comment not in an emotional, factless, "continuum"; but hopefully rather, to state opinions which may stimulate thoughtful discussion without vitriol, or fingerpointing, or waving as we run our shopping errands.
Common Sense Thinker,
If you really had any common sense you would not shop at Wal-Mart. This topic has been discussed on this blog and in the local newspaper for over a year now. If you've been following it all along, you would understand what is wrong with Wal-Mart and also why this town is so angry with Vestar.
So either you have just jumped into the conversation and have no idea of what has transpired, in which case your comments are based on ignorance, or you've been following this story all along and are not able to comprehend it for whatever reason.
Perhaps your brain is no longer functioning properly because you've been sucking on lead-laced baby bibs that you purchased at Wal-Mart. Or perhaps you lost your mind when your dog died after eating poisoned dog treats that you purchased at Wal-Mart.
I have always tried to remain civil on this blog but my patience has worn thin.
Has there ever been a time in your life when someone promised you one thing and then delivered another? Or a time when someone used you to get what they wanted and then once they got what they wanted, they ignored you? And what did you do when that happened? What did you do when you realized that that person didn't give a damn about you? Did you say, "Oh, that's OK, I'll still support and defend that person." Or did you stand up to them?
Yeah, I'm sure what you really thought was, "Gee, you know, I'd really like to give that person my money."
COWGIRL......
Shame. You are one of the few that usually remains above the 'combat zone'. We all drop in there once in a while but please do not continue to refer to people's comments as stemming from ignorance. Let's reserve those insulting comments for Zev and Art. Without that, their ability to communicate is vastly diminished.
I don't think emotion is a bad thing. It is an important part of life. However there comes a time when necessity and practicality must trump emotion. Government affairs, in many instances, falls into that category.
I fell in love with my wife of 37 years, through emotion. But the fact that she had an automobile and television, and I didn't, also weighed heavily!!! :-)
Sorry you don't like Spotlights. It is a booming business that captures more of my money that it should. They do sell caviar. It is disguised on their menu as "fish sandwich".
Happy June!!!!!
Zev....
This blog is not the place for me to post my background. I would be happy to send to a private e-mail if you would like the story.
I am sure you have ways to contact me if you so desire. I am listed in the telephone book or you can just call the Oro Valley office of Long Realty (825-7227) and ask for me they will connect you.
Don
Don Cox--- Not only is this blog NOT the place to post your background, it is also NOT the place to post your dinner menu, your restaurant preferences or your softball activities. It is also NOT the place to post a phone number of your employer.
Accept this as "being advised."
Also, I suggest you watch your snide personal comments about me or others.
If you think your participation on this blog is what makes it an asset for the community---think again.
You can be sure, we'll manage just fine without your obnoxious comments.
Fromdatundra, while I fundamentally agree with the totality of your assessments, I must proffer that emotion can play a positive role on this site. Emotion is an integral part of expression and this IS, by it's nature, a 'place' for allowing it. Yes, factuality is of great importance but only when it is presented within a relative basis and is not 'fact out of context'.
As to the vitriol, it is unfortunate that some time ago one person initiated that as one of his methods for self-validation.
If vilification is used as a constant then one can expect a reactive response - that's human nature.
Art...Just responding to a request by one of you frequent posters. I didn't realize that I couldn't do that. Your limitations on what can or cannot be posted here seems to be expanding on a daily basis.
As I have said many times before pull the plug any time you feel the urge.
Have a great week!!
Tundra...
Your comments are well taken.
I too, although many will disagree, would like to preserve as much of the pristine desert as possible. I have long said that we have already gone too high on the west/north side of the Catalina Mountains. And the hillside development that has taken place in Catalina is a tragedy.
But as you aptly point out revenue is the lifeblood of our local government. Because the current residents demand a high level of services the Town must continue to look for alternative revenue sources. I believe that sales tax is a far better and more equitable route than a local property tax as it spreads the cost to non-resident consumers of local services.
But to generate sufficient sales tax you must sacrifice land. The Oro Valley Marketplace is being placed on a piece of property that was long scarred from abandoned farming and neglect. While others disagree, I think it will prove to be a very positive investment for Oro Valley. Sadly, small shops and boutiques, desired by many, won’t generate sufficient revenue to support the ‘champagne taste’ level of service that Oro Valley residents desire. And much to the disappointment of some the larger “upscale” stores such as Neiman-Marcus and Nordstrom’s refuse to locate here because economic demographics and the resident numbers were not high enough to support their marketing profile.
Emotions are a good thing. But like other factors that must be considered, emotions need to be given priority specific to the necessary outcome desired. (Hopefully I have stated that so others can properly interpret the message.)
OV OT
Credit where credit is due; good post. Where we might differ is that going from a Neiman Marcus or Nordstroms to a Wal-Mart and a Tilly's, for example, is going from one extreme to another. There is a middle ground, I have seen it, experienced it, and seen it thrive. Believe it or not I am NOT a zealot in this matter but do suspect that there may be residual problems created in association with the result. I would suspect that, once the newness of the Marketplace wears off, a good portion of Oro Valley will still patronize Foothills Mall as it is
in closer proximity distancewise as well as timewise to many. And, too, there are other issues. So, we'll see. In addition, while there ARE allowances for tax based incentives to development, there are certain requirements as described in the State Revised Statutes that must be met; in this instance I don't believe that requirement had been fulfilled. I do think that that, in itself, is the sticking point with many.
Relative to the references you made to the financial needs of the Town, perhaps the champagne tastes, as you put it, are out of kilter with the needs for the lifestyle that was originally intended for this area. I personally consider the Naranja Town Site as one of those champagne taste items that we could do well without or at least modify it down to a much smaller scale and perspective. Yes, I know, the park item is one that is seperate from the sales tax revenue/expenditures 'box' but, nevertheless, one way or another, taxes are taxes and costs are costs.
A seeming reality is that Oro Valley, in it's need for a champagne image as well the baggage that goes with that mindset, feels that it needs to create more and more upscale business opportunities in order to maintain it's cycle of maintenance.
We do have space limitations, access limitations, boundry limitations, natural resource limitations, height limitations - so, by the very nature of our geographical state, I doubt if this area can perpetuate itself as a major player as a truly viable tech development center.
It is unfortunate that the City of Tucson has done so little over the years to develop ITSELF as some kind of a center for something; all I hear from them is talk, talk,
talk and their accomplishments are
virtually nil. If there had been an establishment of some type of business core over the years there, would it not then have been possible to retain Oro Valley as an
hospitality/bedroom community?
OT, thank you, this time, for your cool, calm and collected thoughts. This improved kind of dialogue can be of value.
Thinker,
Ignorant means, "exhibiting lack of education or knowledge" and "being unaware or uninformed."
Since "Common Sense" appears to fall into those categories, then that person is ignorant.
I, myself, do not have knowledge of absolutely everything and therefore, I, too, am ignorant on some subjects. Each one of us is ignorant about something! Even you, Thinker.
You asked me to, "not continue to refer to people's comments as stemming from ignorance." But then you said, "Let's reserve those insulting comments for Zev and Art."
You can't have it both ways. You do not get to decide who can be labeled ignorant on this site and who can't.
Thank you for noticing that I usually remain "above the combat zone." That's right. I have always tried to remain civil even when I'm disagreeing with someone.
However, there are times when a particular blogger's comments are so rude and obnoxious, that it is clear that THAT'S the only method of communicating that they are capable of and understand, and I therefore respond to them in kind. When dealing with people of this nature, my way of thinking is this:
They clearly believe that this type of behavior is acceptable and therefore they should have no problem with being treated the exact same way. If they DO have a problem with it, then they are one of those sad people who, as they say, "can dish it out but they can't take it!"
Thinker,
How is it that Oro Valley has the "economic demographics and population" to support a Wal-Mart but not to support a high-end department store?
We're constantly referred to as being elitists and rich snobs, so how does it work out that Wal-Mart's marketing geniuses decide that this is the perfect place for them to locate and Nordstrom's marketing geniuses decide that it isn't?
I know you don't work for either company, so I guess my question is a rhetorical one.
Zen Cywan, OVOT, And Victorian Cowgirl.....The last few posts have bee very enjoyable to read; well conceived and articulated.
Zev, I wholeheartedly agree with you that emotion is important on this blog site. It is a wonderful way for a reader to come to a better understanding of the intellectual validity of the writer. It is the vitriol and self-aggrandizement, which reflect a certain lack of self-control, that is a little off-putting to me when I read these posts. But anyway, back to the discussion!
On any number of occasions---although Don Cox has trouble understanding the fact---I, and the other members of SOVOG, (Stop Oro Valley Outrageous Giveaways),tried as best we could to caution our neighbors that in all likely hood, David Malin & Vestar would "zap us" with a Wal-Mart.
Most of us who analyzed the situation knew full well that our demographics (not enough rooftops) precluded a retailer like Nordstrom from coming here.
As was noted earlier, there is a large chasm between a Wal-Mart & a Nordstrom, and Vestar went through the charade of asking the residents which retailers they would want to see here.
Malin made it a point to tell us the likes of a Dillards, for example will NOT consider an outdoor mall.
As I noted in a much earlier posting, Dillards is a prominent retailer in the outdoor Casa Grande Mall.
There is no way of getting around the fact that Vestar lied their way into Oro Valley. The then council had no clue what to put in the Economic Development Agreement other than their willingness to give Vestar $23.2 million dollars that was accepted without condition.
Why are so many of us angry? The deceit and total disregard of the citizens of Oro Valley by Vestar was bad enough. To have them bring us this monster 24/7 Wal-Mart and giving them $23.2M is enough to make any rational person angry.
That should be easy enough to understand.
Cowgirl...
I can't answer your demographic questions other than state that Nordstrom's has communicated their "Thanks, but no thanks." to the Oro Valley Economic Development Department and that was also covered in the Buxton Report.
I think Wal Mart was looking more at not only the large number of 85737 shoppers that shop in Marana but also the Catalina/Saddlebrooke/Oracle shoppers that will stop here while the additional growth on the west side of I-10 will take care of that store. I would not be surprised if they close the Foothills Mall store in the not too distant future.
I think you misinterpreted my comments. I did not intend to say that Art and Zev are ignorant.(Don't get me in any more trouble with Art that I am in already. :-) After all I responded to a request by a poster and I can't do that.) What I meant that we should allow them to continue to call others ignorant....such as Art is disturbed with yours truly!
And I love your reference to "can dish it out but can't take it". I am a firm believer that if you are going to do one then you must be willing to accept the other. Others involved in this blog get quite upset when I dish it out. But when I do I am readily available to take the heat that follows. I understand your position!!!
By the way don't talk any more about Spotlight's Grille. Art doesn't like that and I don't want you to get into trouble!!
Accept this as "being advised".
Cox--- You were told as long as you continue to make personal comments about me or others, they'll be removed. If you can't control your sarcasm, your comments will be removed.
Art
I am just wondering how many of the complainers on this blog have lived here over 20 years.
I do remember Foothills Mall starting out as a high end mall with a Broadway that did not last.
Also remember Vestar is not the only one to get incentives.
I seem to remember that Albertson's was a high-end grocery store.
Would a high-end store in Oro Valley Marketplace make the center look any different?
All of you that have been here for 10 to 15 years & had your plot of ground graded that was once beautiful land & now you want building to stop.
I do agree that the homes built on hillsides are ugly, but how many of you live in these houses.
We remember riding north on Oracle Rd in the mid 70s & there were beautiful hills above where the shopping center is. Now houses scar those hills.
I used to ride horseback through those hills.
Yes we were deceived, but life goes on. I accept it. I do not want to make a fool out of myself at town hall meetings.
Common Sense Thinker...
What you have described is the natural progression of a society.
Any time there is a change of some kind there will be folks that are for it and folks that are against it.
It is the nature of the beast to expand and seek new horizons. History is nothing more than a record of expansionism back to Adam and Eve.
Thanks for your reality check.
The Two "Thinkers" miss the point totally.
Oro Valley was growing, and as is the norm, retailers followed the expansion of new homeowner growth. This was accomplished without any incentives, other than the privilege of operating in a growing, astute community with an above average income level.
All this changed 4-6 years ago when under the inept leadership of Mayor Loomis, 3 votes of council members initiated a policy to attract retail development to Oro Valley by enticing them with cash giveaways.
There has never been any comment from any blogger here suggesting anyone is "anti growth."
Those of us who have common sense & are objective see no reason to give any developer millions of dollars under the pretense we will get an "upscale, unique" shopping center, and bringing us the low end of the spectrum---Wal-Mart with their lead based Chinese products, their low wage salary structure, and a record of not only low prices, but the impetus for high crime.
That is the issue!
By the way, I've been here 15 years, so I don't need anyone that arrived later to tell me I don't understand what's going on here.
As a result of thousands of voters also knowing what's going on, we will see "the dawn of a new day" as of tomorrow. Thankfully,it will no longer be "business as usual" in Oro Valley.
common sense thinker, the last line of your post weakens your veracity. To that point, you had some reasonable comments (aside from calling those who do not have your perspective "complainers"). You then finish off with the comment "I don't want to make a fool of myself at town hall meetings". You are therefor implying that those who do not speak with YOUR voice are fools. So, once again, we have on this site someone who seems to want confrontation instead of dialogue.
There is an allowance for the expression of differing opinions at, as you put it, town hall meetings; it is referred to as the "call to audience". I have spoken at "town hall meetings"; are you judging me to be a fool? Art Segal has spoken at "town hall meetings"; are you judging him to be a fool? Geri Ottobani has spoken at "town meetings"; are you judging her to be a fool? Many have spoken at "town hall meetings"; which ones are the fools?
Do you think that your opinions are high and above everyone elses or are you picking only those who might disagree with your biased perceptions? If you want to include me in your "ship of fools", do it to my face, not in some kind of muddled reference.
Your post does have some merit, however, you have just diminished your own potential for RESPECT by your unnecessary 'jabs'. NOT GOOD!
Vestar knows the town of OV is powerless in its ability to enforce any meaningful controls on the amount of dust and dirt this construction site generates.
On a very serious note due to the incredible amount of dust and dirt that is generated by this construction site every day it appears as someone I know might have contracted Valley Fever. I have called and written to town hall many times to make them aware of the dust and dirt problems but to no avail.
The lack of action on the part of the town in protecting their citizens can only be classified as gross negilence.
Common Sense Thinker,
Regarding the Foothills Mall starting out as high end and turning into the junk mall that it is today, I didn't live here then, but my guess as to why it failed was because it was located in the wrong part of town. I'm not aware of any upscale neighborhoods in that area.
La Encantada mall is doing quite well, probably because it's an upscale mall that was built in the wealthier section of town. If La Encantada had been built in South Tucson, it would have failed. What's the most important thing in real estate? Location, location, location.
As for Albertson's, I was told by an employee who worked at the store on Oracle that the reason they closed was because they lost an enormous amount of business when Oracle Road and First Ave. were torn up for months, closing off both entrances to the Albertson's parking lot. She said that prior to the road construction, the store was doing quite well. I, myself, would not label Albertson's a high end store. AJ's would fall into that category.
As for your comment, "All of you that have been here for 10 to 15 years & had your plot of ground graded that was once beautiful land & now you want building to stop." Well, it has to stop somewhere, doesn't it? The alternative would be to build on every square inch of land. Is that what you want? As someone who "used to ride horseback through those hills" I doubt that this would be your preference, so it amazes me that you would "accept" what Vestar has done.
You said, "yes we were deceived, but life goes on, I accept it." That's apathy and that's how Vestar got away with what they did in the first place. If everyone in this town felt that way, then we'd just be setting ourselves up for more of the same treatment from other developers.
I, for one, bought my home in an area where only enough land was cleared to build each home but the surrounding land including the land between each home was left undisturbed. As I sit here in my home office, I am looking out the window at palo verde trees, mesquite trees, prickly pear cactus, etc. Coyotes often pass by my window. This is as it should be, a balance between man and nature.
Victorian Cowgirl,
As someone who has lived here for quite a long time, I can provide some insight into the history of the Foothills Mall.
The Foothills Mall did indeed open as the first upscale shopping mall in the Tucson area.
At the time, in the early 1980s, that area was among the most affluent in Tucson. The Tucson National Estates right in the mall's backyard continue to be one of the most affluent neighborhoods.
The Catalina Foothills were indeed always an affluent area, but back in the early 1980s and earlier, the area around the Foothills Mall was as well.
Ultimately, the Foothills Mall did fail due to gradual demographic shifts, and the fact that the Tucson metro area was still too small to support an upscale mall of that size. The metro area has doubled in population since the time the Foothills Mall broke ground.
It is difficult to say what the future holds for Vestar's mall. Demographics suggest that Oro Valley continues to attract more affluent residents, and the town competes with the Catalina Foothills for the area's biggest and most expensive homes.
However, the Vestar mall will serve lesser-affluent demographics in Catalina, Oracle, and Marana. As such, the Vestar mall will not likely reflect the demographics of Oro Valley.
Just my thoughts, for what they are worth. Good day to all!
What a string of comments. Only two folks before me and a ton after me. Yep, Art, I do make a difference.
I think it is intereting that this blog is beginning to attract more folks who see things a little differently that the close-minded blog CZAR. I think that is good and I hope that my efforts to tell folks that they should read this blog to keep current on all facets of thinking in the community have started to pay off.
It appears as though that any time a differing opinion appears the blog CZAR and Zev are quick to point out that what ever the point, the blogger just doesn't get the full picture.
Did it ever occure to you (pl) that maybe you (pl) don't get the full picture? Is it at all possible that your vision is so tunneled that you can't see the forest for the trees in front of you? I submit that it could be true.
AZ Cactus,
There is 'upscale' midscale' and lowscale'. Overall, I would consider most of the better malls, countrywide, as midscale. While they do attract, by having unique shops in a mix with those considered 'upscale' and those considered of 'moderate' scale , having that kind of a mix is very attractive to persons of virtually all income and asset groups. As a retired retailer, I can suggest, with some authority, that, although the 'meat' of my products were 'middle of the road' in price, the SELECTION was generally unique and attracted buyers from all walks of life. Not all buyers of IKEA merchandise are 'poor', yet their prices are generally very affordable; not all buyers of Tiffany's merchandise are 'rich', yet their products range from low medium to high. I personally find that the mix of retailers in the Oro Valley Marketplace a bit messy and uninteresting; as to the success of it, that remains to be seen; as to the 'unintended consequences' relative to it, that remains to be seen too. One must also view that there are going to be two 'malls' at the corner of
Tangerine and I10; will that dilute the retail offerings of Oro Valley? In addition, down the road, there is much development planned for Pinal County along the Oracle 'corridor. I can assure you that as that development occurs, additional retail will be situated there including more 'big box' stores; then what?
Thanks for your insight into the demographic history; points well taken!
Thinker,
You said, "What a string of comments. Only two folks before me and a ton after me. Yep, Art, I do make a difference."
I must point out that Zev could say the same thing. There was only one comment before his post and a ton of comments after it. Geez, Thinker, it's not all about you!
AZ Cactus,
Thanks for the info about the Foothills Mall. It does seem to boil down to demographics and population. You are correct that, "the Vestar mall will serve lesser-affluent demographics in Catalina, Oracle, and Marana. As such, the Vestar mall will not likely reflect the demographics of Oro Valley."
That's a big part of what's wrong with this mall. It's not being built for Oro Valley residents, the ones it was supposed to serve, and the ones who are forfeiting millions of dollars in order for this mall to exist.
Cowgirl.....
Heck, if you want to carry it a bit further, practically no one responds if Art doesn't post something that is wrong or silly.
But I have to take you to a conversation I had on the softball field one day with Zee Man. He and I play on a softball team together. (I forgot that I wasn't supposed to talk about softball) He requested that I post more often as it has a tendency to stir responses. So not only do I do it because it needs to be done but it DOES help the activity and as Zev has said, it provides some comic relief to his otherwise sedate lifestyle.
I'm out of this string. I have a comment or two for one of today's posts. Let's gather there!!
Don Cox--- Let me say this as succinctly as possible. Regardless of what The Zee Man might or might not have said, being I am responsible for the content on this blog---blog CZAR, to use your snide description ---your participation is welcome as long as you remember to eliminate your arrogant personal comments. If you believe this blog needs you to be a success, you are sadly mistaken.
We disseminate information, and whether a post generates 40 comments, or none is irrelevant to the information posted.
U r da Man, Art. I kind of like Blog CZAR! It has a certain ring to it.
A measure of the success of LOVE, or any other blog, is the number of comments it generates. If you post material and nobody looks at it, whats the purpose unless it is just a hobby or an ego driven fantasy? This is not a hobby for you. It is a passion. And frankly, I am happy for you because it has been successful.
But make no mistake about it. The only you can make any noise and claim to "have a following" and suggest that you can turn the tide in an election is if there is evidence that people are reading this stuff.
I left out the word "way" in my last paragraph.
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