Saturday, July 14, 2007
Big Box Stores: A Deficit For A Town
Blogger Evan Wise sent us his letter to the Explorer. In it, Evan points to a study done by Barnstable Massachusetts, the Cape Cod town that houses Hyannis. "The study found that big box retail generates a net annual deficit of $468 per 1,000 square feet". That is, big box stores cost more than the revenue they generate for a town. Evan concludes: "Not only will the Big Box stores cost the community money, property taxes will be raised to support the workers at Wal-Mart due to the low wages scale, schools will be needed to teach the influx of workers, and existing local retail and grocers will struggle or die due to the import of cheap Chinese goods at low prices." Read Evan' s letter by clicking here.
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33 comments:
It's really too bad that citizens like Evan can do a little research that our town officials can't, or won't do.
Only a fool would have signed the contract our Mayor Loomis signed, allowing this Big Box Wal-Mart to sit directly across from Catalina State Park.
And here's another thing. An AZ Republic article (although 2 years old) states the following:
"According to AHCCCS, most families on the program have one worker and an average of 1.7 children and cost the state (AZ) about $5,550 a year. Applying that formula means Wal-Mart workers cost about $15 million per year."
As I said many times previously; "Give Wal-Mart their $250,000 and have them go somewhere we they are wanted----and that's certainly not Oro Valley!"
It would be interesting to find out
if legal advice was sought by those
council members who signed this EDA.
We had a town attorney at the time,
so would any of this be a public record. Did those council members at the time just ignore the legal advice or was there no advice.
Supposedly this document, the EDA,
excuses or grandfather's Vestar from
things like the recent water and sewer hook up fee's. Restrictions
on hours, etc.
Perhaps this attorney should be reported or his/her conduct reviewed , I just can not imagine an attorney not giving council advice and not including the problems with this EDA.
Something is very wrong here.
It is difficult to know who posted the comment from "ARTMARTH". And I can understand why.
This is one of the worst comments I have seen on this blog and Zee Man should take note.
First of all Mayor Loomis had nothing to do, nor did any other Council member with Wal Mart being in this project.
Secondly, I would like to know what the implication is between AHCCS and Wal Mart employees.
What is being said here?
So, once again "Objective Thinker" has trouble understanding facts.
Perhaps I can simplify it so even he can understand.
"Objective Thinker" writes:
"First of all Mayor Loomis had nothing to do, nor did any other Council member with Wal Mart being in this project."
Art's Response: Mayor Loomis signed the contract with Vestar. The contract was so one-sided, how any responsible person would sign it is unimaginable. The specific issue I refer to here,is the fact if Oro Valley ever initiated any Big Box Ordinance Vestar made sure they were exempt. Many municipalities including Tucson have provisions to either allow or disallow Big Box stores in a new shopping mall.
Wal-Mart is one of Vestar's favorite anchors. All anyone needed to do was check their web site, and regardless what David Malin (Vestar) said, it was no surprise to us that Wal-Mart was one of their first announced retailers, with Oro Valley having no Big Box Ordinance.
"Objective Thinker" writes:
"Secondly, I would like to know what the implication is between AHCCS and Wal Mart employees."
"What is being said here?"
Art's Response: "Implication?"
First of all, you have to be knowledgeable enough to know that AHCCCs (3 "C's"-- not 2) stands for "Arizona Health Care Cost Containment System." Once you understand that, you may understand that Wal-Mart is the largest private employer in Arizona and according to department of economic security numbers there are also more Wal-Mart employees than any other getting benefits from AHCCCS Breaking it down to percentage of workers, Wal-Mart is number one for workers on AHCCCS. Wal-Mart workers cost [Arizona taxpayers] about $15 million per year.
1) With no limitations for a Big Box in the contract that Loomis signed, we end up with a Big Box, which just happens to be Wal-Mart.
2) You consistently state how much revenue Wal-Mart will generate. You always seem to disregard the fact that much of it will be cannibalized from our existing retailers paying Oro Valley 2% sales tax, while Vestar will pocket almost half of the revenue generated fom Wal-Mart and the other OV Marketplace retailers.
Also, you obviously cannot understand, as a result of the low wages Wal-Mart pays their workers, many of them are on AHCCCS, which costs us, as taxpayers.
"Objective Thinker" writes:
"What is being said here?"
Art's Response:Perhaps now you can understand what is being said here!
Artmarth
Objective Thinker,
NOW do you GET IT??!!
My guess is that even though it has been spelled out for you in language that a 6th grader could understand, you STILL won't get it because you DON'T WANT to get it.
I'm thinking of a verse from a Simon & Garfunkel song...A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.
You insist on looking at only how much money you think WM will bring in. You completely disregard how much money they will take out! I'm sure glad you're not balancing MY checkbook!
Thinker, I am glad you or the council members who signed that agreement,don't go shopping with me.
Even the car sales people don't want to see me coming.
Those who were involved in this EDA just did not know how to play hard ball.They got in the ring with the big boy's and did not know how to play the game.
They needed a few female's on that team, and I just bet Vestar would be
singing a different tune now.
Keep in mind the events that lead up to the Vestar boondoggle before Objective thinking tries to re-write history! It could be said that the March 14th vote on Question 2, a proposition on the economic incentive agreement between Oro Valley and Phoenix based Vestar Development Co, was decided by the people of Oro Valley.
SOVOG and a few looked into the Vestar past track record and saw the inevitable outcome. After an extensive fight forced by SOVOG, Question 2 inadvertently was turned into a majority consensus of Oro Valley residence in what appears to be off-loading the responsibility from the mayor and majority of city council members at the time. However when you look at the media blitz by Vestar and feedback from Oro Valley residence, high end type of shopping like Neman Marcus was proposed with no mention of the possibility of Walmart.
Now after the fact, with recent growing popularity of opposition to Walmart, most of the voters feel they fell prey to the “bait-and-switch” tactic. As a constituent, you hope that our elected officials would have our same values and future vision of the type of community we expect preventing this loop-hole or miss-step in the negotiation. If I was a business owner I would question the cities favoritism in subsidizing the cannibalization of like services. This also has sets precedence for future growth!
Unfortunately its either incompetence or indifference by our representatives that has subsidized $23.2 million of our future sales tax revenue for 114 acres of retail space which will cannibalize from our existing Oro Valley retailers.
This wasn’t the “only” solution that some on the council will preach, just drive by Skyline and Campbell and look at La Encantada where Westcor provided a unique shopping experience and the road improvement without tax incentives. Makes one wonder what are the benefits of living in the city.
Art and Cowgirl's comments are extremely distasteful and smack of elitism. According to their theory, in order for a retail operation to be acceptable and open their doors in Oro Valley, they must pass the Art/Cowgirl,
"How many employees are disadvantaged and have to rely upon AHCCCS for health care?"
litmus test. If you have too many then we don't want you here.
There are a huge number of hard working people working at Wal Mart's throughout the country and you insult each and every one of them. Many of them ARE from economically challenged homes but that doesn't mean we should shut down the employer. They didn't becomed challenged because of Wal Mart. In fact their job probably benefits them financially or they wouldn't be working there. Wal Mart happens to be one of the largest employers in the nation. How much state and federal assistance money is saved by the fact that all of these people are working, being productive and not deadbeats on the street? Let's research that number.
Dislike Wal Mart if you wish but don't insult the people who do their best to provide a living for their family!!!
EVERY business that opens cannnbalizes business from another like retailer. It's called competition. Albertson's closed their doors because they refused to compete with Fry's, not Wal Mart.How many businesses closed when Wal Mart opened in Marana? The answer is none. Even with the reduced sales tax the overall impact on the revenue base of Oro Valley will be positively impacted. That's the fiscal bottom line.
MsCoyote - We could argue forever and not agree on whether Oro Valley squeezed hard enough. I don't think that is beneficial. But I must admit that my lovely wife drives a pretty hard bargain also!!
DMillikin -
To my knowledge, high end shopping was NEVER offered and was never included in any marketing piece produced by Vestar. You are the first person I have ever heard to mention Neiman-Marcus. I wonder how that slipped by everyone else?
And I would suggest that you check the record on your street improvement comment. Pima County, who receives NO sales tax, paid for the roadway improvements at the stated intersection. Westcor was responsible only for the connections to those improvements. If you would like confirmation of that simply contact Pima County. I can provide you with the number to call and the budget item in which the improvements were included.
I am not the one who is trying to "rewrite history." I am the one who is stating fact and not conjecture.
Happy Sunday all. Let's all join together and get some rain in here!!!
Gosh. You do stir the pot, Thinker!
The stuff I got in the mail from Vestar promised a upscale, unique shopping experience to go along with a new theater. No new taxes.
I knew it was a joke. So, I voted NO.
Just assume, Thinker, for the moment, that my recollection is correct; that we were promised something unique. Therefore, wouldn't you agree that we are not getting what we were promised? Wal-Mart is a low-end retailer.
We all might as well forget trying to talk sense to the "Objective Thinker." (Talk about a misnomer!)
Basically, his argument has one conclusion, here, and his other comments throughout the blog: "I made up my mind, don't confuse me with facts!"
It would be easier to teach a javelina to roll over than to teach him to accept the facts!
Our readers will decide who & what to believe.
“There are a huge number of hard working people working at Wal Mart's throughout the country and you insult each and every one of them.”
It’s an insult that many of these hard working Wal-Mart employees need to rely on Government programs like AHCCCS. The Arizona State legislature voted against a bill which would have required companies like Wal Mart to reimburse the tax payers of Arizona for the under insured employees. Instead, we paid $15 million in health care subsidies just for Wal Mart in this state alone. Nationally, the cost to tax payers was 1.5 BILLION. Not a bad way to increase a profit margin, Mr. Cox. However, if Wal Mart would play by the rules most other companies must, it would have cost them closer to 2 BILLION since government run health care is more efficient and cost effective.
“They didn't becomed (sic) challenged because of Wal Mart.”
Not yet, but many will. According to the laws of supply and demand, the number of services and stores would stay the same with or without a Wal Mart. Wal Mart brings down the standard of living by lowering the wages across a much larger scope. There will be many more who will lose their jobs in the locally owned stores that will go under because this is not fair competition (they don’t get the subsidies that WM gets). These one-time proud employees of the local businesses will end up burdening the social systems like AHCCCS. We then get not only the Wal Mart employees on AHCCCS but also the displaced workers that Wal Mart directly puts out.
“To my knowledge, high end shopping was NEVER offered and was never included in any marketing piece produced by Vestar. You are the first person I have ever heard to mention Neiman-Marcus. I wonder how that slipped by everyone else? “
Than you, sir, were asleep at the council meet I attended in April 2004. This doesn’t surprise me, however, because you were either asleep at the wheel while you were running for Town Council or you were paid off. I hope you were just snoozing.
One thing that confuses me about Thinker is aside from all of our opinions, how does he excuse the fact that Vestar "promised" us one thing and so far has not delivered.
We can all argue about Wal-Mart, upscale, , etc.
But what excuses Vestar from honoring
their promise?
Dear Thinker,
Please enlighten me as to exactly which comment I made that was "distasteful and smacked of elitism."
Ms Coyote -
The term "unique shopping experience" is a marketing term. Satisfaction of that is strictly in the eyes of the beholder. Having a theater in Oro Valley is unique. We don't have a sporting goods store in Oro Valley. Dick's Sporting Goods therefore becomes unique. I understand it is a semantical argument but the same can be said about
"promised" us one thing and delivered another.
Help me better understand by telling me what stores would you like to see in that center.
Cowgirl -
If I had replied to one of your comments in the same tone and made inference that you didn't understand the language of a sixth grader, you would have been all over me....and rightly so. I try very hard to keep my comments civil and in the spirit of what Dick and Art say they want on this blog. Sometimes I fall just a bit short when some folks can't, or don't appreciate my humor. But I think you have to admit that I have never made reference to whether a person can understand the language of a sixth grader.
You also, indicated, by your comments, that you agreed with Art. His comments were nothing short of insulting and elitist, which he has a tendency to do from time to time. I am just surprised and disappointed that he used this venue to express them.
Have a great week!!
OVOT,
I didn’t see anything in Art’s or Cowgirl’s comments that were either distasteful or smacked of elitism.
Yes, it will be a burden on the taxpayers and on our healthcare system in Oro Valley to have an employer import hundreds workers, pay them poverty wages, and refuse to provide them with health insurance. I don’t want that kind of employer here, either.
You ask how much is saved by the fact that all of “these people” are working and not “deadbeats on the street.” Obviously we’re not saving much, if people who work at Walmart still qualify for assistance. But I’d be interested in seeing your research on how many people Walmart is going to rescue from the streets of Oro Valley.
You rightfully point out that “Wal Mart happens to be one of the largest employers in the nation.” In this country, we expect employers to provide health insurance for employees, and Walmart has failed this nation in that regard.
Nobody here is arguing that we should “shut down” Walmart. What I hear them saying is that Walmart, the largest private employer In Arizona, shouldn’t depend on us taxpayers to improve its corporate profits. It shouldn’t be burdening our healthcare system by importing hundreds of uninsured workers into Oro Valley.
I don’t know how Neiman Marcus slipped by you, but it was actually mentioned in Vestar’s poll--you know, the one where over 90% of those surveyed asked for a reputable department store, and fewer than 10% mentioned Walmart.
Thinker,
Actually, you misinterpreted my "6th grader" comment. I wasn't saying that I thought you had the intellect of a 6th grader.
I was saying that no matter how clearly someone spells something out for you, you won't get it because you DON'T WANT to get it.
Did you read the Fiscal Impact Analysis study from Barnstable, MA that was recently posted on this site? The study found that big box retail actually generated a NET ANNUAL DEFICIT of $468 per 1,000 square feet, while specialty retail produces a NET ANNUAL RETURN of $326 per 1,000 square feet.
So big box retail (Wal-Mart) costs more in public services than the tax revenue it generates, while specialty retail generates more tax revenue than it costs to service.
So if your main concern and main argument is tax revenue, then isn't it time you signed the pledge?
I'm betting that you will ignore these statistics, too, because they do not agree with your hypothesis.
Cowgirl.....
I would really love to understand your position. But you (and I am not referring to you individually...I am referring to the anti-OV Marketplace gang as a whole) make understanding it so difficult because you talk in riddles.
You mention a study done in MA and you quote some numbers that "big box retail" returned a deficit of $468 dollars per 1000 square foot and speciality retail produces a return of $326 for the same area. I did not read it only because I missed it. If you can repost it I would be more than happy to look at it.
This kind of a comment begs the following questions:
1. What is big box as it relates to this study?
2. What is indicated by the term "deficit" and "return"?
3. What is indicated by the term "specialty retail".
4. Was this study an actual over time study of actual fiscal performance of many outlets or a computer generated model?
Without knowing the answers to these and several other questions, the study is not relevant. So help me out here and provide me with some more input to support your contention. I also am not sure that a study of retail conditions in a community which is 20 miles from Hyannes Port, MA (much higher per capita income than Oro Valley)is applicable here. But I am sure willing to look.
It's not that I don't want to understand. I have yet to find sufficient FACTUAL information that supports your (not personally)position.
Why would any organization that is a "big box" (Target, Home Depot, Lowe's, Kohl's, Dillard's, Nordstrom, Macy's, etc.) ever open their doors if your quoted study was accurate?????
As for your "distastful" logic, I accept and respect your explanation. I know Art fairly well and I know EXACTLY WHAT HE MEANT.
"Objective Thinker" writes: "I know Art fairly well and I know EXACTLY WHAT HE MEANT."
If you know what I meant, you will stop all this hyberbole,and acknowledge that Oro Valley will give $23.2 million of OUR future sales tax to Vestar.
Forget the size of the Big Box, forget the studies that you refuse to accept, regardless of the source. Forget the data about AHCCCS. Forget the fact that Vestar made commitments, which used terms like "unique" & "upscale." Forget that many of those who voted for the incentive feel they were "snookered."
Can you understand that a large portion of the revenue this Marketplace will bring in, will come from Wal-Mart, and in the free enterprise system you keep telling us about, Vestar will POCKET almost 1/2 of this revenue.
Surely you can understand if someone gives you a dollar and takes back 45 cents, you no longer have a dollar.
That is the only issue. To be deceived by Vestar, and end up with a Wal-Mart, and giving Vestar almost half of OUR revenue (at the expense of other retailers)is just idiotic.
If you can understand this, then you can honestly say, "I now know EXACTLY what Art meant!"
And, by the way, if you know me "fairly well," as you indicated, you probably weren't surprised that I deleted the nasty personal comment you saw fit to post about me on this issue. As long as you can avoid that personal attack, you're welcome to present your views.
Thinker,
To find the study to which we are referring, go to the LOVE site, scroll down to Big Box Stores: A Deficit for the Town, click on "Read Evan's letter by clicking here." This will open a PDF file. Evan's letter to the editor is at the top of that file. Scroll down one paragraph and begin reading where it says: Fiscal Impact Analysis.
Also, you stated in your last blog that Dillard's, Nordstrom, and Macy's were "big box stores." These are high-end department stores. There is a big difference.
To be honest, I don't know if this study included high-end department stores. They mention "shopping centers" but don't specify if this means a strip mall concept or an indoor mall.
They do specify the following, however: "The two main factors behind the higher costs for big box stores...are higher road maintenance costs (due to a much greater number of car trips per 1,000 square feet) and greater demand for public safety services."
Do you honestly believe that WM will not have an impact on those two categories?
Art…..
I completely agree with the fact that, if Vestar meets the goals set forth in the economic development agreement (EDA) they will receive $23.2 million of the sales tax generated from the Oro Valley Marketplace. There is no disagreement there. I believe, and please correct me if I am wrong, the disagreement is as follows:
1. Whether there should have been any incentive agreement.
2. If yes, how much would be reasonable?
There is further disagreement on whether a Wal-Mart should be located in Oro Valley and if so what is the economic and social impact?
Before I formulate my response, please clarify the above and/or edit so I don’t waste time. I think it is important to stay on point as much as possible and to not have a huge laundry list of item to present.
Thanks.
Cowgirl....
Thanks. I promise I will read it.
But there are two interesting items that you mention that I think warrant review.
First of all the increase in the number of auto trips must be an indicator that many people WANT to shop at the big box. I think it would be far worse if something was built and no one utilized it.
Secondly, you indicate that your interpretation of a big box is not in the square footage, but in the quality of the products sold there. To me Target, Home Depot, Kohls, Dillard's (etc) AND Wal Mart are all big box stores simply by the nature of the square footage involved. Help clarify that for me.
We all obviously failed in our collective attempt at getting some rain on this side of the mountains. We need to work a little harder at that!!!
Thinker,
To try to clarify the difference between a big box store and a dept. store, I went on Wikipedia. That way, I can offer you the "official" definition of the two and not just my own take on it. Here is what I found:
BIG BOX describes the physical characteristics of the building. They are large, free-standing, rectangular, 1-level buildings. This style is favored by volume discount retailers. They are also called Superstores and Supercenters. Check-out is located at the front of the store. This describes Wal-Mart but does not describe Dillard's, Macy's or Nordstrom.
DEPARTMENT STORES are usually multi-leveled and sell apparel, home items, jewelry and cosmetics. A check-out station is located in each dept. This describes Dillard's, Macy's and Nordstrom.
DISCOUNT DEPARTMENT STORES, such as Kohl's, also have the check-out counter located at the front of the store.
Cowgirl...
So what is your objection to big box stores? I don't mean the following in a condescending way, but if you don't have a personal definition of a big box, how can you oppose it and secondly do you think the study you quoted used the Wikopedia definition of a big box?
I am even more confused than before. Are you opposed to the construction or where the check-outs are located?
Art....
Since you have not responded I will prepare a response based on an assumed yes to question one and that $23.2 million is too high.
See, I told you we could collectively do it. Nice rain this evening.
Thinker,
I gave you the definition of "big box" from the Wikipedia site because if I gave you my personal definition, then we would just go back and forth regarding my definition vs. yours. You believe big box includes Macy's and Nordstrom. I do not. It turns out, however, that my definition is the same as what I found on that site...a large, free-standing, 1-level, discount retailer.
I don't know if the study I quoted used the Wikipedia definition of big box, but since my definition was the same as Wikipedia's, I assume that most people think of a big box the same way that I do. I really believe that most people would agree that Wal-Mart is a big box store and Nordstrom is a department store.
I'm not crazy about ANY big box discount retailer because I think their merchandise is of poor quality.
Case in point: I recently purchased a new ironing board cover and pad at Target. I didn't notice until I got it home that it was "made in China." As my husband was attaching the velcro straps that go underneath the ironing board, one of the straps broke off! He stapled it back together. Then, the first time I ironed with the new cover/pad, I noticed that the pad was so thin that I could feel the metal ironing board underneath it. The last pad I owned (made in USA) was much thicker and made ironing much easier. So now I have to look for a new pad for my new ironing board cover. This was a very cheap product! I paid $14.99 but it was only worth about $3.99. Cheap products, to me, are a waste of natural resources. They don't last and you have to keep throwing them away and buying new ones. It's destructive to the environment on so many levels! On the other hand, the items I purchase at high-end department stores and catalogs are of very good quality and last for years. My last ironing board cover/pad was made in the USA and I had it for 8 years before it ripped.
As for Wal-Mart, there are a multitude of reasons (beyond cheap goods) why I don't want them in Oro Valley. If you've seen the documentary, "Wal-Mart: The High Cost of Low Prices" you would understand. Have you seen it?
Cowgirl......
If I buy a pair of Dockers at Kohls and the same Dockers at Nordstrom, besides the price, what is the difference? If I buy a Panasonic television at Best Buy or the same product at Macy's, is one of better quality?
You probably could have bought the same ironing pad at Macy's, and paid $18.00 for it. Would that have made it last longer?
Some people can't afford to buy top-of-the line merchandise. And yes, some of those people live in and around Oro Valley.
I guess because they are in that financial position we should force them to drive 10 miles further and pollute our air that much more, use more gasoline, cause higher road maintenance costs and subject us to the potential of more public safety costs?
Somehow I see major contradictions in your position.
Thinker,
You wouldn't find the same pants at Kohl's as at Nordstrom nor the same TV at Best Buy as Macy's because those stores all stock different products. I went mattress shopping recently and although the 3 stores I checked offered mattresses from the same manufacturers, the model numbers were different. I DID NOT FIND the exact same mattresses at each store.
And, no, I could not have bought the same ironing board cover at Macys' for more money. I searched many stores plus the internet for a cover before I ended up at Target. Either the stores didn't sell ironing board covers at all or the ones they did sell were ugly. The one at Target had the prettiest cover and that's how I made my choice. As I said, the cover I previously owned was made in the USA, cost me more money, and lasted 8 years. Just how is a poor person saving money when they have to replace their items every 6-12 months because they fall apart while I keep my items for years!
My husband bought 4 pairs of shorts at LL Bean 5 years ago. He still wears them all the time and they are still in top condition after 5 years and numerous washings. A friend of mine, on the other hand, bought a pair of shorts at Wal-Mart for $7.50. Then she complained that the side seam came unsewn the very first time she wore them!
The major contradiction in YOUR position is as follows:
Forcing Oro Valley residents to drive 10 miles to a Wal-Mart will cause air pollution, higher road maintenance costs, and higher public safety costs. But having people drive the same distance or more from Catalina and Oracle to the Wal-Mart at OVM, somehow will NOT cause those very same problems!
Those who moved to Oro Valley who shop at WM, KNEW when they moved here that there was no WM in Oro Valley and they would have to drive to the Foothills Mall for this. Just as I knew that there was no Macy's or Nordstrom in Oro Valley and I would have to drive to Tucson Mall or Scottsdale for these stores.
So if we're going to put in a Wal-Mart for those folks, well, then, we'll have to put in a Macy's for me! Why should I have to drive out of MY way and cause air pollution and road maintenance costs in the process! After all, it's a longer drive from Oro Valley to Macy's than it is from Oro Valley to Wal-Mart.
So why aren't you rallying for a Macy's in Oro Valley to help prevent pollution and road maintenance costs?
By the way, we AGREE on the religious institution issue. Hey, this could be the start of something big!
Once again I love it.
The ironing board cover was purchased not because of quality or cost, IT WAS PRETTY.
I can't argue with that.
Bottome line..... you want Macys and Dillards. I also want the same things and a Costco.
We aren't going to get it. Live with it. Many people are happy that there is going to be a Wal Mart.
Fight those battles you have some chance of winning. I served in the military for five plus years. You need to pick the hills you want to charge. Wal Mart isn't one that I choose to fight. There are many more important issues than Wal Mart and Vestar.
The religious institution in a residential area issue is one of them.
Don
Art...
I have really lost interest in arguing the OV Marketplace issue. Not because you or others have beaten me down, but it is simply an issue that is not going to change because you and I agree or disagree. Most people participatine on this blog can't come up with objectives arguments. It's all about Wal Mart and whether the products they sell are pretty or whether their employees are disadvantaged. That's just not an argument that I want to participate in.
I think the EDA was good only because it forced a developer to produce income in a timely fashion. Your view is locally tunnel visioned. Over the long haul Oro Valley scores a fiscal win. That can not be disputed
But we must also look at things more regionally. Pima County wins. Oro Valley residents win. AMPHI School District wins. Oro Valley residents win. The Library District wins. Oro Valley residents win. Golder Ranch Fire District wins. Oro Valley residents win.
Does every citizen get what they want. NO!!! But in the long run and in the big picture does this project benefit the community. The answwer is yes. And that's why it passed!
Let's look forward and see how we can help our community become a better place to live, work and play.
LET ME SAY IT ONE MORE TIME, EVEN THOUGH I KNOW OBJECTIVE THINKER WILL NOT LET IT GO WITHOUT WANTING THE LAST WORD.
WAL-MART WILL NOT BE GOOD FOR OV OR ANYTHING ELSE AS LONG AS VESTAR POCKETS 45 CENTS FROM EVERY DOLLAR THEY COLLECT IN SALES TAX, ESPECIALLY WHEN THIS MONEY IS BEING CANNIBALIZED FROM EXISTING RETAILERS.
THAT IS THE BOTTOM LINE! PERIOD!!
AND, BY THE WAY - DOES ANYONE REALLY CARE THAT GOLDER RANCH FIRE DISTRICT WILL DO WELL WITH W-M HERE. GRFD IS GETTING RICH ENOUGH WITH THEIR NEW FOUND POT OF GOLD AS A RESULT OF THE OV COUNCIL HELPING THEM IN THEIR MERGER WITH RURAL METRO FD & ANNEXATION OF OV COMMUNITIES.
Thinker,
As usual, you didn't answer any of my questions, instead, you just changed the subject to make it about pretty ironing board covers which had NOTHING to do with the argument we were having. You didn't answer whether or not you have seen the Wal-Mart documentary. If you haven't, then you really don't know ALL the issues at hand.
And you insisted we needed Wal-Mart in Oro Valley so people wouldn't have to drive to the Foothills Mall and create pollution and road maintenance costs but you didn't see how you backed yourself into a corner with that one because you then would also have to argue that we need a Macy's in Oro Valley so people won't have to drive to the Tucson Mall and create pollution and road maintenance costs. You didn't argue with me on that, you just changed the subject!
I'm sure we'll visit each other again on another issue on this site or probably the same issue. Hey, I actually enjoy sparring with you. It keeps my brain active!
Cowgirl....
I did not bring up the ironing board issue. :-) You did. And I am not insisting that we have a Wal Mart. I would much prefer a COSTCO if we must have a discount retailer.
I have not bothered to see the Wal Mart video only because I know it's origin and from that know that it will not be objective. I put that video and the productions by Michael Moore in the same category for objectivity.
I did read the report that Evan posted and find it very difficult to relate to Oro Valley. The report only discusses the revenue the community(Barnstable)receives from property taxes. There is no mention of sales tax revenue. I can only draw the conclusion that the community does not assess a local sales tax or, for the purpose of this report, it was not included.
It is also important to note that this same report states that a "shopping center" and a "restaurant" are big fiscal losers for Barnstable.
When you truly analyze this report what it says that businesses that create high user volume are a Barnstable revenue loser. The ideal business in this context is one that generates no traffic and therefore no need for services. That's pretty difficult to accept.
On a personal note, I am pleased that you enjoy good, honest sparring. It IS healthy and I think it is good for the Town that all sides of an issue are examined and discussed......even when I know that few on my side would venture into this world to read my opinion.
Have a great week!
Thinker,
Just for the record, my problem with Wal-Mart isn't just the poor quality of their products. That was just one example I gave you. I am also concerned about the crime and traffic congestion that W-M creates. And traffic congestion means more pollution. I have asthma. I moved here for the clean air and the dry air. Have you ever seen pictures on television of the bad air in L.A. or even in Phoenix on some days? The air is brown! I do not want to see this happen in Tucson or in Oro Valley. I'm sure you're aware of the "bowl effect." We live in an area surrounded by mountains. This causes the air to get trapped down low and this is when we get bad air days when asthmatics are told to stay indoors.
W-M products are also made in China. They exploit poor Chinese laborers who are forced to work 7 days a week for 14 hours a day for $3.00 per day. Think about the person you love the most in this world. Would you want them to be forced to work under those conditions? It's always OK as long as it's somebody else and it's happening thousands of miles away.
How about their corporate ethics? They have violated child labor laws, water protection laws, and they currently have the largest sexual discrimination lawsuit ever filed against them by 1.6 million former and current female employees. They also have wage and hour lawsuits filed against them by workers in 31 states who were forced to work overtime without pay. Would you want the person you love the most to work for this company?
And then there are those taxpayer subsidies. We pay for the public assistance programs that W-M workers are forced to apply for because they cannot live on W-M wages.
Cowgirl...
I emphathize with your asthmatic condition. I lived in the LA area for eight long, arduous years and was directly affected by the bad air. And I lived in Phoenix from the early to mid 80's BEFORE it became a traffic nightmare.
There comes a time when I think enough has been said about an issue. You are very anti-Wal Mart and for reasons that are very valid in your mind. There are valid reasons to be critical of Wal Mart. But the China issue is not high on my list of Oro Valley priorities. Nordstroms sells products from China. Macy's, Dillards, the aforementioned Neiman Marcus all sell products from China. I agree that labor condition are apparently very bad in China and other countries. But going after Vestar because the Chinese government is lacking just doesn't connect with me. I think some people just use it as an excuse to further bash our local government.
What I would like for you and others on this blog to do is focus on something much closer to home.
That is the change in the zoning code which will allow religious institutions to buy the home next to yours and conduct services in it.....with no public review. I am not opposed to religious institutions in residential neighborhoods. But I do believe that we should also protect the rights of home owners and insure there is a public hearing for those impacted to be heard....pro or con.
I am putting Wal-Mart and OV Marketplace to rest for now.
As the old southern/midwestern expression goes....There are bigger fish to fry!!! :-)
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