Vestar promised the people of Oro Valley the "moon." Instead, we're getting is a 24/7 Wal-Mart Super Center.
Is it any wonder why the citizen's group OV1st.com is asking us all to boycott the Oro Valley Marketplace?
Read the latest in a May 14 Arizona Daily Star article.
15 comments:
Lots of interesting comments were made.
Glad to see the "good guys" get some press for a change.
Why can't our town officials rally behind the people and voice their oppostion to this Wal Mart?
Did our present council investigate the details of the EDA?
Maybe if they would start speaking up Vestar would take notice.
What was Vestar thinking? Did they expect us to be happy with this
Wal Mart at our new shopping mall.
Vestar should be taking notice by now that we don't want the Wal Mart, hopefully they are considering other stores to replace the wal-mart with.
You would think with the money that Vestar stands to gain, 23.2 million they would have thrown us a bone , but no they add insult to injury.
Vestar would be smart to replace the Wal Mart, they still would get their 23.2 million and maybe avoid all that negative press and pr that this whole situation invites.
A brief comment and a question of my LOVE friends this beautiful Oro Valley morning:
The more I read comments made by some locals, the more I am convinved that the SOVOG movement was as much about Wal-Mart as it was about using tax revenue as an incentive.....maybe more. As I have previously stated I personally observed signature gatherors(sp?)soliciting support based on anti-Wal-Mart comments rather than tax incentives.
I doubt we would be hearing nearly as much rattling of the pots and pans if there was a Dillard's or a Macy's in the Marketplace.
My question has to do with the $23.2 number that every one keeps throwing around. Do you have any sound evidence how much of that $23.2 mil is going to the bottom line of Vestar? You keep saying how much Vestar "stands to gain", but do you REALLY any clue as to how much of that is going toward rent incentives or additional construction costs because of the topography of the site and the Pima/Oro Valley design requirements? I would sure like to know what the true profit number is.
My response to OV Objective Thinker:
SOVOG was formed and the Question 2 referendum was passed long before Vestar ever announced that Wal-Mart would be the anchor store, so NO, SOVOG was NOT about preventing a Wal-Mart from coming to town, it was about bringing the $23.2 million dollar incentive to a vote by the citizens of OV.
At first we were upset that the town offered this incentive to Vestar because that area is prime real estate and an incentive to build there was NOT necessary. This town is always complaining that we don't have enough money, then they hand millions of dollars over to a developer.
Now we are furious that for our $23 million, we are getting a Wal-Mart! You are correct that we wouldn't be so rattled if Vestar was giving us a Dillard's or Macy's instead. Only 11% of survey respondents said they wanted a WM. 89% wanted an upscale dept. store, many of those requested a Nordstrom! So yes, when the majority of people request Dillard's, Macy's, or Nordstrom and then we're handed a Wal-Mart, you can bet there is going to be an uproar!
Just how does Vestar propose to entice all these upscale shops and "signature shops" to come to OVM when WM is the anchor store? If I owned an upscale boutique and Vestar approached me about leasing space at their mall, my first question would be: What is the anchor store? And upon being told that it was Wal-Mart, I would say, "You've got to be kidding me! The people who shop at WM are not going to shop at my store so all that foot traffic is not going to benefit me at all."
To answer your question about what Vestar stands to gain, try looking at this another way. What does Oro Valley stand to LOSE?
We will lose $23 million in sales tax dollars. We will lose other stores in town who will be forced to close once WM opens and then we will lose those sales tax dollars, too! The people who work in those stores will lose their jobs. We will lose our peaceful and nearly crime-free surroundings. We will lose our clean air due to the pollution created from all the traffic that WM will bring. And we will lose our standing as a "Town of Excellence."
So it doesn't matter to me whether Vestar makes millions on this deal or whether they make pocket change. I am more concerned about what Oro Valley will lose.
Yes it was a beautiful day out there.
I can only speak for myself, personally I was against the EDA, regardless of what they promised to bring in. However Vestar led people to believe they were approving a unique, etc, shopping experience, actually they call them lifestyle centers,, whatever that means. In my mind they need to deliver on their deal or their word.
You say that you personally observed signatures being solicted support based on an anti wal mart comment, rather then tax incentives. I recall you writing that, and if you really thought that was true, you should have reported it. The whole purpose of a referendum is and was to allow or refer an issue to the ballot.
Most people have no problem with that. Nor do I
My concern is not for Vestar, they have been around long enough to plan their deveopment and their finances.
My concern is for our town and seeing that we don't become a giant strip mall. A deal is a deal hmm, unless you are dealing with a developer who routinely renigs on their word
So what do you think? should Vestar be made to keep their word? If you do, then sign the pledge, if you don't then nothing I can say except you think that developers or special nterests should have the ability to not honor thier agreements
Have a good one
Good evening Victorian Cowgirl.
Nice to meet you. I have not seen any comments from you previously but I always enjoy responses to my opinions. Community dialog is a very healthy thing.
As I mentioned in my posting, I personally, observed those gathering signatures entice people to sign the petitions with anti-WalMart language and never mention the tax incentive. While the stated intent of SOVOG may have been the tax incentive some of their volunteers were singing the anti-Wal Mart tune back then. However I, without signing the petition, supported the outcome. I so stated that in a letter published in the NW Explorer.
As far as the actual process of entering into the economic development agreement, I strongly endorsed that position and I would like to share with you my reasoning.
While the property is a "prime" retail location it was far from a prime piece of real estate. It was so sub-prime that Pima County had plans to place a waste water treatment plant on it. (Would you rather have that?) It was a very difficult piece of property on which to build. Two developers, prior to Vestar, had proposed to build on the site only to pull out primarily because of the tough Oro Valley design standards combined with the fact that it would cost MILLIONS to develop the land. Therefore the land sat vacant, unused and frankly it was an eyesore. Oro Valley realized nothing from the property. In the meantime people are moving to Oro Valley and there is insufficient retail to support the growth. That fact was supported by several surveys done by both the Town of Oro Valley (TOV) and private consulting firms.
Along comes Vestar and makes a proposal that had a tax incentive component. They could have asked TOV to assist them by building the infrastructure. That would have cost the Oro Valley taxpayers a bundle. They could have asked for lower building standards and we would have potentially had just a different eyesore. They could have asked for many other incentives which would have been paid directly from the TOV which again would be the sole responsibility of the residents of Oro Valley. They didn't. They asked TOV to rebate to them future tax money (if any) from the retail sales they expected to generate. In other words, they (Vestar) will pay for everything up front. As tax revenue is generated part of it will be rebated to Vestar.
It cost Oro Valley NOTHING. The only cost to Oro Valley will be well into the future when we will have tax revenue to pay for it. You cannot lose what you don't have. That's the falacy of your/SOVOG's argument. The Town will benefit to the tune of ten's of millions in revenues over 20 years. Money that we may never have realized if the land continued to sit vacant. Pima County will realize many millions in additional property taxes. Amphi school district will realize millions in additional revenue without adding a single pupil to their enrollment. Our children will have a place to go. Our teens will have employment opportunities. We won't have to pay $4.00 a gallon for gasoline to drive to a movie. The incentive amount ($23 million) will be paid in large part by non-Oro Valley residents who will shop there.
So when you look at the benefits versus costs this is a great win for us. Without that revenue we would have been asked to make huge sacrifices in Town services OR we would have to pay an unnecessary tax that would have been very burdensome on many.
MANY people living outside of Oro Valley use our services. This is the only way we have to make them pay a share of the expenses.
I doubt that the morning after Wal Mart, or any other retailer in the Oro Valley Marketplace, opens their door our lives will have experienced a negative change. You (plural) make it sound like the end of the earth will be upon us.
Thanks for expressing your viewpoint. I respect it, but I just see things a bit differently.
I dont think there is any doubt that the majority of OV citizens DO NOT want a WM in this town. I believe the reason that SOVOG obtained so many signatures was, in large part, because people were scared to death of the possibility of a WM being built here. In speaking recently with some neighbors and people that live in OV , I can tell you there is a real and growing dismay regarding Vestar. We were misled. My family and I, for one, will still be going to the movies and eating out once this strip mall is built...but it won't be at OVMP. WM is not a fit for Oro Valley, and it surely will not attract the types of business many in OV were hoping for. I'd much rather spend my time and money elsewhere than support something that was never wanted to begin with. I hope that all the signatures that are being collected will not only be forwarded to Vestar, but to every business planning to open shop at OVMP. A movie theater was certainly not worth a Walmart(and all it's problems) in my opinion.
Hello Thinker.
Personally I think that if voters had known that a Wal Mart was to be the centerpiece of the OVM, the EDA issue would have overwhelmingly gone the other way.
About the property at Oracle & Tangerine, you say it was slated as a wastewaterr treatment plant for Pima County, Interesting. How did the property change hands from Pima County to Vestar or Vistoso Partners, not really sure who owns it now?
I don't know the cost to develop land or shopping malls, however I would assume that a developer who is in the business of making money would know this and accept this as a cost of doing business.
You know there is no free lunch, hmm well not for most of us anyway.
Also I have read so many things, pro and con, but do recall reading that somebody connected wth this project admitted that our rooftops, their term for us , could not support this retail project.
You say " You cannot lose what you don't have.", Well the town council was trying to do give away what they did not have, they should have talked to you first.
You keep bringing up SOVOG, well that group consisted of citizens, neighbors and friends who had the courage to go up against a developer and town council and tried to bring out the facts of this project . Don't know about you, but if I have to pick a team, I play for the people and not for a developer. SOVOG people live here, Vestar people are just temporary visitors, after a while they are like fish, leave them around fro more then a few days, well they stink, time to throw them out, or put in the freezer.
Since you keep bring up the time frame of when SOVOG was active, then I will say that in my opinion, at that tme we had a majority council who were not savvy enough to look at the whole picture.
They got caught up in the Vestar deal. They failed us miserably.
Fianally, do you agree or disagree that Vestar should be held to their promise of a unique shopping center or forfeit their cut of the pie??
I disagreed with the EDA, but fair is fair, well maybe not, but if Vestar comes up with what it promised then we need to hold up the bargain. Why should we play by the rules when they don't.?
Hello OV Objective Thinker,
I understand your point of view on all of this and you do make some interesting points. The problem is that this Vestar deal has so many "legs" to it, there isn't just one black and white issue. So although some of your points are valid, the other side offers many valid points as well.
One example: Vestar's flyers promised "No New Taxes!" if the incentive passed. The incentive passed and we were then given a new 2% utility tax. How can you trust a developer who clearly lied to us in order to win?
I also agree that although it was a "prime location" that the land was not necessarily a prime piece of land, but really, what is? Developers have to make many changes and improvements to much of the land that they develop, don't they?
You said the empty parcel of land was an eyesore, and that Vestar could have asked for lower building standards which would have created another type of eyesore. I never thought that land was an eyesore but for arguments sake, I'll ask: If it WAS an eyesore, wouldn't putting a Wal-Mart there just be another type of eyesore? Do you think there is something aesthetically pleasing about a Wal-Mart building or parking lot?
And it's also true that our lives will not change the morning after Wal-Mart opens, but this town WILL change and our lives WILL be affected by that change, I predict, within 6 months of the opening.
This town gave Vestar everything it wanted. Don't you think that Vestar could have reciprocated and tried a little bit harder to bring us quality retail? Instead they just fell back on their old standard and best buddy, Wal-Mart.
You also didn't address my question, how is Vestar going to entice upscale shops to this mall when Wal-Mart is the anchor store? Doesn't it concern you that Wal-Mart will just attract more low-end stores?
Vestar's own advertising describes Oro Valley as an "upper middle class suburb" and "home to a highly educated population." Yes, and we all shop at Wal-Mart and eat dinner at Jack-in-the Box!
Can you also admit that the other side has valid arguments as well?
Whew!! Great responses from a good group of people.
I truly wish we could spend a Saturday afternoon having coffee somewhere and talk face to face. As I said discussion is a great asset. Typing is not my strong suit but I will attempt get all of it answered. I know I will miss some but bear with me.
The "other side" has valid points...to them. I just wish there were more facts, not emotions, to support them. For instance: "Most people do not want a Wal Mart." 60% of the Town citizens voted for the EDA.....knowing that there was a strong possibility of a Wal Mart. That's fact. Please support your contention that "most OV citizens don't want a Wal Mart.
Our (Oro Valley) rooftops will not support this mall is an accurate statement. But this is not a mall exclusively for OV shoppers. If you look at the current, AND PROJECTED, rooftops within a 20 minute drive of that intersection there are plenty or rooftops and income. This is supported by a report from the Buxton Group which did an analysis of that exact question.
Ms Coyote you bring up the point about the term "unique". What is unique to you and I may not be to many folks. Unique is such a mushy word (that's why it is used) that there is no true practical or legal definition. There is some trash, in my opinion, being sold in "unique" shops in Tubac that I wouldn't give you ten cents for. When I was on the Planning and Zoning Commission I attended a homeowner's association meeting once and overheard a woman describe unique as "something that I cannot afford". :-)
My next comment, has to do with the approval of the EDA and SOVOG. First of all I know Chet Oldakowski pretty well. I had a great chat with him and his wife earlier this week in Fry's. Chet and I like each other, respect each other and have agreed to disagree on the EDA issue. But I will state this with supporting fact if you need it. The Council that approved the EDA did not give Vestar everything they wanted. The EDA was a much higher figure initially. And since then we have extracted more goodies from Vestar. There was no water conservation component in the initial plan. There was no space in the original plan for a police sub-station within the mall. There was no plan to enhance the riparian area running through the property. These were all added.
And lastly, and this may ruffle some feathers but it is a valid point. The EDA contains very strict time guidelines. Construction but meet a certain schedule and all phases mave a deadline to come out of the ground and begin generating income for OV. The delays created by the legal hassles seriously hampered Vestar's ability to negotiate with potential tenants. You are correct that there is a long and readily visible relationship between Vestar and Wal Mart. Given additional time could Vestar have negotiated a deal a Costco or other anchor store or did they have to fall back on old reliable because time was short? That's a question that will never be answered but it is one of those knawing issues that remains.
I am curious why nobody mentioned the tremendous revenue generated from this project that will accrue to the benefit of Oro Vally, Amphi and Pima County. Do you simply discount that as frivilous or does Wal Mart trump all of that????
Hello.
Not sure who said this but somebody said "Most people do not want a Wal Mart" 60% of the town citizens voted for the Eda knowing there was a strong possibility of a Wal Mart.
Think you mean 60% of those who voted. I had to get you on that!!
Ok, can you prove that 60%of those who voted knew of the strong possibility of a Wal Mart? You can't . In my opinion most knew little about the details, they just wanted to believe all the things that Vestar threw out there. Again my opinion.
About the rooftop figures and the demographics, etc, I have checked out a few from various web sites and from what I see those charts and circles, etc they use are a tad far fetched. Marana is gettig their own new shopping centers, soon with the projected populaton and building boom set to hit Pinal county, those who they counted on to shop her will have their own stores.
About the word "unique" yes it could mean different things to all of us, so knowing this are you saying that Vestar purposely mislead the voters here. I think they did, do you?
About all that tremendous revenue, Yes of course bring it on, but lets keep it in the town of Oro Valley , not share it with developers.
About the substation in the shopping center, my understanding is that the town will be paying for the officers salaries, is this true? Let Vestar pay.
Also the delay in approvals for the plans for the marketplace, its also my understanding that at the town staff asked for additional time for review as the whole project was so complex. Town staff that was involved in this phase of the project would not or should not have been involved with the towns dealing with SOVOG.
The ability or inability of Vestar to attract unique or upscale tenants had nothing to do with any time frame, any other retail operation of course would just check out Vestar and see what they are about and hello only certain stores will go in with Wal Marts.
So did you sign the pledge yet??
Have a good weekend!
Dear OV Objective Thinker:
Whew! I'm mentally exhausted. How about you?
OK, to support our contention that most OV citizens don't want a WM, I offer the following: When my husband and I go door to door delivering flyers and obtaining sigs, the response is overwhelmingly anti-WM. Probably 98% of those we talk to are very happy to sign the pledge. Many of them engage us in conversation about WM and Vestar and they are all as furious as we are. Only an occasional person has refused to sign, usually stating that they want the WM because of low prescription prices. Many have said they never would have voted for this mall if they'd known that WM would be the anchor. You have to admit that NOT ONE of Vestar's glitzy flyers or the DVD they sent out mentioned anything about WM as the anchor store. And they probably deliberately used the word "unique" so they could later argue that unique means different things to different people. However, there is no arguing the meaning of the words "upscale" or "extraordinary" which were also used by Vestar. They also frequently mentioned "signature shops" which to me means the upscale type shopping one would find at LaEncantada. Can you admit that they deliberately misled us?
As for the Buxton survey, these were the people who said that OV had a highly educated population and a median income of something like $70,000 a year and then they offered Old Navy and Coco's Restaurant as places that would be attractive to this population!
As for the police substation, Vestar is NOT paying for that. OV residents are paying for it through our taxes. Our taxes will pay to lease the space and will pay the salaries of the police officers. And the only reason we NEED the police presence is because of all the crime that WM is notorious for attracting. So my take on this is...first you want to charge me $23 million to build an Anywhere USA mall with WM as the anchor, this will generate crime, and then you want to charge me for the extra police to handle that crime. Can you understand my frustration with this plan?
I disagee that delays caused by legal hassles may have hampered Vestar's ability to negotiate with other tenants. All one has to do is look at Vestar's other malls in the Phoenix area and you will see the exact same stores at each one. These are the stores they work with.
And yes, for my money, Wal-Mart trumps everything else! I believe the damage they will do to this town will far outweigh any benefits that we MIGHT see.
Well it appears as though at least three of us are enjoying these exchanges. I sit corrected.....60% of those who voted. :-)
Why should Vestar or any other retailer in this Town pay Oro Valley for police officers salaries? That just doesn't compute. I guess in a round about way they are paying because it is their investment money that is building the stores which generate the taxes that pay the police. Vestar is leasing the space (Sub-station) to Oro Valley at a cost of $0. And frankly we don't need the substation. It will be put there only to satisfy those few residents who think that this mall will be a haven for every criminal within a hundrerd miles.
My last comment has to do with the benefits versus Wal Mart. If you truly believe that a Wal Mart will do that much damage then you must know something that is unknown to everyone else. No where in this country is there any documentation that supports that assumption. I am not happy with this store being the anchor. But when I look at the BIG picture and the benefits that the additional revenue will provide for Oro Valley then I must support it. Doesn't it make sense to collect taxes from those who live in Saddlebrooke, Marana, Catalina, Oracle, unincorporated Pima County? Every tax dollar they generate is one less tax dollar that must come out of the pocket of an Oro Valley resident.
In the end Wal Mart is not going to change your quality of life or mine. Burdening me, you and the other residents of Oro Valley with an endless stream of taxes will.
OV Objective Thinker,
You assert that nowhere in this country is there documentation that supports the assertion that WM will do extensive damage to the community. Have you seen the documentary, "Wal-Mart: The High Cost of Low Prices." Here is just one example of WM ruining another person's business. A family hardware store in business in Ohio for 43 years was forced to close shortly after a WM opened nearby. There are numerous instances of this nature documented in this movie.
Also well-documented is that there is a higher incidence of crimes in WM parking lots (including rape, murder, kidnapping, car-jackings, auto theft, vandalism, muggings)than there is at any other retailer.
Your only argument for this mall appears to be all the sales tax revenue that it will supposedly bring in. I know that you are a fiscal conservative, and although I am liberal on many issues, I am conservative when it comes to how my tax dollars are spent. Are you aware that taxpayers subsidize WM employees? We pay for the public assistance programs that their employees are forced to apply for because they cannot survive on WM's low wages (WIC, Medicaid, food stamps, etc.) WM actually advises their employees to sign up for these State programs. In Arizona, 2,700 WM workers are on Medicaid. YOU pay for this! For some reason it's even worse in Florida, where 12,300 WM workers are on Medicaid.
So how can you be a fiscal conservative and go along with this?
I have another question for you. Again going back to how your only reason for wanting this mall is for the tax dollars it will generate. Is there ANY type of business that you would oppose in Oro Valley even though it would bring in an enormous amount of revenue for the town?
How about an adult entertainment complex for instance? Suppose someone wanted to build a complex that would house a topless joint on one end, a totally nude joint on the other end, and in between would be a dozen or so businesses that would "complement" these 2 anchor businesses? Perhaps an adult video store, another store that sells sex toys, another business that does nude photography and runs a porn website, and a fetish nightclub to top it all off. Let's face it, the sex industry is huge and brings in billions of dollars a year so think of the tax revenue this could bring to OV. Would you promote this or oppose it?
My flight out of Tucson today took me over the the Vestar construction site and the fact that a Wal-Mart Supercenter sign might soon be a permanent part of the beautiful Catalina mountains scenery sickens me. At ground level it is disturbing enough to know Wal-Mart will be a blight on the landscape, however, with Wal-Mart lights on all night long it will be the signature feature of Oro Valley at night.
Where are the astronomers? I guess they are in the "dark" about the Wal-Mart matter or just don't care.
Hi Victorian.
Sorry my response took so long but other more pressing matters have kept me busy.
I completely discount the 'movie' you refer to as it was made and paid for by those who are not objective in their approach to Wal Mart. It's kin to the Michael Moore movie on 9/11. Again let me remind you that I would prefer a different retailer at this location. For every stat that is presented in the movie WalMart can present an alternate stat.
The business community (Chambers of Commerce) have supported the Oro Valley Marketplace. Business is good for business.
To address your final comment, yes there are enterprises, such as adult entertainment, that I would not support. I would point out that your description of that kind of business would not occur in our community as it violates the Oro Valley zoning code and would not be possible.
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