Thursday, March 4, 2010

Can An Oro Valley Election Be "Bought?" We Hope Not

We keep bringing up the issue of "Special Interest Groups" supporting some of the candidates.

We are quite concerned that these "Special Interests" are supporting candidates and are doing so because they expect "considerations" if and when "their candidates" get elected.

Our readers need look no further than who received how much in contributions.

May we suggest, those that have not yet voted, pay close attention to the numbers published in The Explorer.

It might behoove you to vote for those candidates that received the least amount.

For Mayor, that would be Mike Zinkin.

For Council, that would be Dr. Don Emmons.


Here is The Explorer article.
http://www.explorernews.com/articles/2010/03/03/news/doc4b8da03571fc0569653005.txt

85 comments:

OVDad said...

Seems to me that Zinkin doesn't even know how to balance his own campaigning budget, but I'm sure Art will find a positive spin on this.

OinStarr said...

I have looked beyond what the Explorer infers from the finance reports and see that most of the candidates contributed their own money to their campaigns (with the exception of Emmons - as of last checking he didn't submit for this reporting period). The contributors appear to be just ordinary people, friends, neighbors and relatives. I also noticed there were donations made to current candidates that also contributed to Salette, Bill and Barry in the last election. Are we to believe that those folks bought the above mentioned and are now trying to buy the current candidates? I did see the $2,500 Democratic Committee donation reportd on both Salette and Barry's reports - what were they buying?

I guess I see donations as a way to help a candidate get his message out. If this blog is a way to communicate information to the concerned folks of Oro Valley it certainly has not been fair and reasonable to all candidates. Therefore, they need help printing, etc., even pay for the robo calls made by Zinkin. So to say vote for the person who received the least is bad advice.

Zev said...

Can't stand it anymore!!!
IF YOU CAN'T FIND AN ISSUE, JUST INVENT ONE?!

artmarth said...

.

OinStarr--- I must have missed the OV Council meeting when Barry & Salette voted for Obama's Health Plan. Bill Garner would have also voted for it, but as we all know now---including Cox, Bill wasn't a recipient of Democratic Funds.

The only issue is this:

Which candidates, if elected are more apt to give our tax dollars to the likes of MTCVB, TREO, SAACA-formally GOVAC?

If additional layoffs become necessary, which candidates do you think will look at the OV cops as "sacred cows?"

I stand by my advice to those that have not yet voted.

Please vote for Mike Zinkin--Mayor & Dr. Don Emmons--Council.

Eleanor said...

This is my first posting here.

I am concerned with the implication from the LOVE Blog that only rich people should run for office in Oro Valley.

If you are a low-income/middle class citizen without the financial resources to self-fund a competitive campaign, which I understand is in the tens of thousands of dollars, how do you seek office?

Why should we hold it against people who get money from their friends and family? I looked at the campaign disclosure statements too. These people are getting money from everyday people. Who are the "special interests"?

We should be more careful when trying to paint people as being tainted by the fact that they need to raise money - unfortunately, the american political system works that way.

That's all I wanted to say.

Thank you.

Zev said...

Eleanor, you nailed it!

Zev said...

This certainly ain't the 'no spin zone'!

OV Objective Thinker said...

Zev's posting say it all.

If you are to follow Art's logic then you should support only candidates that:
1. Don't know how to raise money.
2. Are so bad that can't raise money
3. Tried to raise money but failed.
4. A combination of 1,2 or 3.

As I have always said.....just let him talk and he will implode.

John Martin said...

I would agree with Eleanor.

Since coming to Arizona, I've been skeptical of the publicly financed campaigns for state office. I have no problem with people raising money from people and groups throughout the community. How they vote is still up to them, and, believe it or not, many politicians take a group or person's money and still vote against them.

I'm reminded of the old quote about the game of politics (a sanitized version, of course): "If you can’t take their money, drink their liquor ... and then come in here the next day and vote against them, you don’t belong here."

Zev said...

Good post, John; I will add:

How come the three people running for Council Persons who have been the subject of some vilification due to their being endorsed by TREO, NPCCC, FOP, ETC., namely Mary Snider, Joe Hornat, and Lou Waters, have been out day by day, every day, pounding the pavement, going door to door, section by section, block by block, talking with the ordinary 'folk' and asking questions, speaking with same, learning the pulse of the community, whilst the candidate this blog is pushing, Dr. Don Emmons, HASN'T done much of anything other than assist in gathering a portion of the required signatures in order that he qualify for a position on the ballot? DOES HE EVEN CARE?

Not having received nor spent any money getting across whatever his message might be indicates, for me, that Dr. Emmons has no message other than that of a minimalist parroting of his 'mentors'.

OVDad said...

This is one of the most sensible discussions I have seen here yet. I wanted to add that I do not think it would be hard for the three candidates mentioned by Zev to receive money from these organizations, but that their reluctance to do so might tell us something.

Zev said...

I should add that Mike Zinkin, Candidate for Mayor, has 'pounded the pavement' also.

Chuck Davis said...

People that donate money to candidates do so for any number of reasons-
1. they believe in the candidate and what they stand for.

2. they recognize that the process of running for office is expensive and they wish to help out.

3. they feel that their contribution will provide them with access to the candidate when elected. access does not mean that the candidate will do what they want, but at least they will be willing to listen. To suggest that a candidate will do what an organization tells them to do since they donated to this candidate just is not true. In business I never allowed my salespeople to get involved with a buyer that was on the take. You will never win in that situation and its best not to play the game.

From my standpoint I do not see anything wrong with any of the three reasons noted above.

artmarth said...

I would only ask our readers to consider the following points.

Who is more apt to:

1) Waive the fees for home builders;
one who was endorsed by home builders, or one that was not?

2) Vote to give tens of thousands of our tax dollars to MTCVB (Metropolitan Tucson Convention & Visitors Bureau or TREO (Tucson Regional Economic Opportunities; one that was endorsed by these entities, with no consideration of ROI (Return on Investment)or one that was not?

3) Vote to allow business lights to stay on as long as the business wants, with no consideration of the scientific community or the home owners; one who was endorsed by either the Pima County C of C or The Tucson C of C, or one that was not?

4) Vote to allow the Chief of Police or the police union to dictate if any police layoffs are necessary; one that was endorsed by the OV Police or one that was not?

We all know the answers, and that is the issue.

We need a Mayor & Council Members that are not at all beholden to anyone other than the people.

Mike Zinkin & Dr. Don Emmons are two candidates that meet this criteria.

Zev said...

Art, you keep posting as if you were speaking for THE people.Instead of trying to debunk the visions or qualifications of those you oppose, why don't you give us, THE people, your vision, in a more positive manner, as to that which you think Oro Valley should be and why you feel that YOUR candidates have more vision and are more qualified to attain THE peoples' wants.

artmarth said...

Zev---Fine. My candidates of choice have no agenda other than serving the people.

They are independent of ANY outside or inside influences.

If layoffs become necessary they will objectively look at ALL departments. They understand that the Police Chief works at the pleasure of the council, not vice-versa as other candidates have enunciated.

Mike & Dr. Don will NOT give OUR tax dollars to outside entities as many of the other candidates would.

Mike & Dr. Don will not allow Mr. Parisi representing the Tucson C of C to tell them that it is a good idea to allow the businesses to determine when to shut off their lights.

I present my views. Those that agree will vote as I suggest. Those that don't will do as they see fit.

Mike & Don NEVER would have terminated our Town Manager. Can "your" council candidates make that statement?

I can remember not too long ago that I did NOT have to explain any of this to you, but that was then. This is now.

By the way, welcome back from your self-imposed exile from the blog.

Victorian Cowgirl said...

While it is true that..."Mary Snider, Joe Hornat, and Lou Waters, have been out day by day, every day, pounding the pavement, going door to door, section by section, block by block, talking with the ordinary 'folk' and asking questions, speaking with same, learning the pulse of the community..." I feel I should offer this observation I made of them while they were making their rounds.

I saw some folks walking past my window one day. Turned out it was Snider, Waters and Hornat going door-to-door. I saw them knock on doors, wait for an answer, and if there was none, they left a flier at the door and moved on to the next house.

However, all 3 of them WALKED RIGHT PAST MY HOUSE WITHOUT STOPPING. They had to walk by my house a second time on the way back to their vehicle. This time they stopped, discussed something for a minute, then Waters and Hornat continued walking back to their vehicle while Snider came to my door and left the fliers. However, she did not ring the bell.

Oh yeah, there is a ZINKIN FOR MAYOR sign in my front yard.

So much for talking with your constituents and wanting to know how they feel about different issues.

BTW, I had been strongly considering Waters at one point because he impressed me at the candidate forums, but after this incident and after learning of another incident from "someone in the know," I have changed my mind.

Zev said...

Will not, will not, will not; how about 'will'. There was a time when you "didn't have to explain any of this" to me?; how self-indulgent that statement is, Art. I think I am quite capable of my own explanations without your 'garble'. There was a time when you had my respect, Art, YOU, SIR, screwed that up and I have about a 3/4"" thick file of documentation that can back up my reservations about you at this point in time, NOW! And you know darned well that I wasn't the only one who had issues with what I perceive to be some of your less than admirable 'performances' from VERY early on in this election process.

VC, I too had a Mike Zinkin sign in my yard. That did not stop either Mary Snider or Lou Waters from ringing my doorbell and they had no way of knowing that I lived where I did. And, VC, let the 'someone you know' speak for themselves 'cause I'm tired of unnamed hearsay validations.

Honestly, it appears that there are several 'Art moonies' out there who simply fall for an empty bowl of 'snow job'; I am PROUD to say that I can make up my own mind.

Art, it seems like you don't have any real vision except the 'will nots' and that really is no vision at all. I asked you for a simple positive insight; it appears you couldn't give any.

artmarth said...

Well, well--- Zev's last comment:

I quote: "I am PROUD to say that I can make up my own mind."


On February 15, 2010 4:40 PM
Zev said...

"As to this site, after several years of commentary here, I am going to bow out and continue my own interaction with the People of this Town, not with those who are simply crafting personal agendas or
their own super egos. THE END"

So much for making up your mind.

Nobody forced you from the blog,. Nobody forced you back.

Perhaps, this too was my doing.

As to your 3/4" file, maybe you should get it published.

Intimidation doesn't work here!

Zev said...

I came back to post because some of the misinformation that was being bandied about here was(is)an unbearable indignity considering that many posts in this stream were (are) refreshingly rational. Of the blog master I suggested that something other than a meaningless take-my-word-for-it, blah, blah, blah, mantra be revealed after he (Art Segal) 'answered' a Chuck Davis post. Mr. Segal simply continued on his with his blah, blah, blah; all blather with no substance. I asked for steak, I got mush.

As for your inference that I might be trying to intimidate you, Art, only fools delight in masking reality.

Nombe Watanabe said...

"Breaking up is hard to do"

-Neil Sadaka

Victorian Cowgirl said...

Zev,

I spoke to someone else at Sun City who said that those candidates also rang their bell despite the Zinkin for Mayor sign in their front yard, although I noticed you said that only Snider and Waters came to your door, but not Hornat. I asked this person WHEN they came to her door and it was one week before they came to MY street. This makes me wonder if somewhere during that week, if there might have been an incident where they were made to feel unwelcome when they knocked on the door of a Zinkin supporter.

The other option for why they went to your door and not mine could be that they DID know that you lived there. When I delivered fliers for candidates in the past, I was given a sheet with the names and addresses of registered voters on the streets I was canvassing so that I wouldn't waste time stopping at homes of unregistered voters. If Snider-Waters-Hornat had that info with them, it could explain why they went to your house and not mine. I would suspect that they DID have that info on them because it would be a huge waste of their time to knock on doors of unregistered voters. They can cover more ground more quickly if they stop only at homes of people who are most likely to vote.

Just a couple of theories.

There was SOME REASON they chose to skip my house, and SOME REASON they stopped and discussed it in front of my house for a few minutes before making the decision they did.

OVDad said...

... or maybe it's just a conspiracy theory

Nombe Watanabe said...

Another great reason to live in a gated community.
No reason to feel bad when no one knocks on your door.

Zev said...

VC, I doubt very much if Mary and/or Lou knew I was the individual living where I do; when I answered the door both Mary and Lou were outwardly surprised at my living there. Joe was down the street somewhere and I believe that if he had known about my living where I do he would not(as I found out later that he was) have been so disappointed that he had 'missed' me. A little later that week, after I had passed out some flyers for Mike Zinkin, and while driving on a street 5 blocks from my home, I saw Mary on one side of the street and Lou on the other, each passing out flyers and doing so SEPARATELY AND WITHOUT ANY LIST.

As to why you or your house was passed up, that I cannot answer nor can I even speculate. These are NOT spiteful nor are they intimidated individuals; quite to the contrary, they have very nice as well as engaging personas and they do not run or hide from discourse on issues that might be controversial.

That some might think that these INDIVIDUALS might exercise some kinds of 'quid pro quos' just because they happen to have received endorsements from certain organizations is simply a sad and wrongfully construed assumption and one that has been rudely aggrandized, agendized, and perpetrated by some whose rationales seem only to be clouded by anger.

Joe Hornat, Mary Snider, Lou Waters, Mark Finchem - these are very qualified candidates.

Matt Rabb - who out there cannot 'love' him? I feel, however, that Matt needs to get his feet a bit wetter within the community before taking on this huge responsibility.

Dr. Don Emmons? Ah, he HAS had the opportunity to be of service to the community for MANY years now. He, to my knowledge, doesn't (hasn't?) ever attend any Council meeting let alone has he been a volunteer on any board; yet, he did have the audacity to originally offer himself up as a candidate for Mayor; in Jewish we call that chutzpah! While he might be a nice guy, he's not the material I would want to have a seat on Council.

K.C. - well......

artmarth said...

Dear Readers--- I'm sure must of you do not particularly care which candidates knocked on which doors, so I won't address that issue.

However, I will address the last comment.

I've been asked why we support Mike Zinkin & Dr. Don Emmons. Some still are not satisfied with our response, in that both of these gentlmen believe in the same issues as we do.

Evidently, if another blogger says that some candidates he supports "are very qualified candidates," are we to say "OK, as long as you say so?"

Let's take Lou Waters as an example. Mr. Waters was a fine reporter, but what makes him "very qualified?" Might it be that he recently attended a couple of council meetings after declaring his candidacy?

Two other points. As far as Matt Rabb is concerned, might it not be time to have a young (27 year old) man serve us. After all, the 60+ & 80+ year old council members left a lot to be desired.

Finally, as it concerns Dr. Don Emmons and the point that he wanted to run for mayor----just because Cox said so doesn't mean that is a fact.

If I could "dictate" to Dr. Don, I would insist he state for the record one more time that he contacted me and indicated he would run for council---with or without my support.

We obviously saw fit to support this gentleman.

According to the comment preceding this, Satish Hiremath exhibits "chutzpah" in running for mayor.

I guess we can all see what we want to see.

So be it!

OV Objective Thinker said...

Hi All....

This is a far more recent thread and I need to make another correction. In this case however, it is somewhat qualified. I just got off the phone with Mike Zinkin. And he assured me that he has not accepted (yet) any contributions from the Pima County Democratic Party as I was told. Therefore my previous reference was incorrect.

HOWEVER, when I asked Mike if he would pledge to me that he would not accept money from the Dems if he made it through to the general election he clearly stated that he would accept their money in a heartbeat. That's too bad.

Nombe....The label was not wasted on me!!!

Et al....

All of this nonsense about contributions influencing an Oro Valley Town Council person is simply a red herring that is thrown out during every election cycle by people who have no other reason to oppose a candidate and damn little to trumpet about their own choices.

Somehow the people who make these accusations lose sight of the fact that many of them are making contributions to candidates and therefore the same argument they are making against others can be used against them. I have yet to meet a candidate for office here in Oro Valley that could be bought. So let's all grow up a little bit and drop that comepletely stupid assertion that a contribution means they are "apt" to vote one way or another.

VC....Maybe they knew it was you and knew how far over the edge you lean and wanted to save on paper costs. :-)

Zev said...

"Finally, as it concerns Dr. Don Emmons and the point that he wanted to run for mayor----just because Cox said so doesn't mean that is a fact"; so writes Art Segal, the master of this site. Well, all, read Dr. Emmon's (drdon) post on September 25 under the main stream title "Shame on Loomis, Carter, Kunisch, and Abbott"; Dr Emmons most certainly DID offer himself up as a candidate for said position (mayor); the post doesn't lie, Cox IS telling the truth and, well......

In an e-mail to me (and others who I choose to hold in anonymity), Art Segal writes:

"Hi---it is now Sat. 1:50AM (Sept. 26) and I just finished a 2-1/2 hr conversation with Dr. Don Emmons. Some of you may have seen this comment on the blog made this evening by "drdon". He says it all, but I'll tell you a little bit more."

The message continues with a reiteration of 'drdon's' post, some observations comments, and it ends with: "I THINK OUR PRAYERS HAVE BEEN ANSWERED".

Now, Mr. Segal does have the absolute right to believe what he does about the qualifications of Dr. Don Emmons, but, Mr. Segal, please don't deny the FACTS relative to the sequence of events as they truly unfolded.

artmarth said...

In response to the prior comment, I will say this.

During my 2 1/2 conversation with Dr. Emmons----we had not yet met--- I addressed his commitment to throw his hat in the ring.

Rather than paraphrase Dr. Don's comment, here it is in its entirety.

drdon said...

I just finished listening to the farce of a council meeting where our beloved town manager was removed. I am absolutely disgusted with the way this went down. I had the pleasure of meeting David Andrews a few years ago and found him to be of high ethical standards, extremely intelligent and very compassionate about what he was doing. I believe that Mr. Andrews loves Oro Valley as much as the rest of us do, and I find it totally reprehensible as how he was treated. I have read with great interest all of the posts on this blog, and I see a lot of support for Mr. Andrews. The one thing I do not see is someone stepping up to throw their hat into the ring to challenge Mayor Loomis in the March 2010 election. Let me throw my hat in that ring to say I would be honored to do just that. I am an eleven year resident of Oro Valley and love our town. I have raised a wonderful family here and would love to see this own of ours become better. To unseat Mayor Loomis and his cronies however, I will need help, so I ask the powers that be for their support and guidance. Should you so desire to help me please leave a post on how I can get in touch with you or send a reply to Art and I will find a way to get in touch with him. I am very desirous to unseat the incumbent Mayor in the March election, please help me.
Thank you.
drdon
September 25, 2009 9:55 PM
***********************************
The fact is, during our 21/2 hour conversation,just subsequent to his comment, Don realized it was more practical for him to seek a seat on the council, and that is what he did.

One consideration was the fact that we knew Mike Zinkin was considering his candidacy for mayor.

Our readers might be interested in our posing of Sept 29, 2009, just four days later. Here is that posting.

Tuesday, September 29, 2009
Mike Zinkin-- The Next Mayor Of Oro Valley

There are many repercussions as a result of the despicable actions orchestrated by loomis that disgraced our community.

The major concern, of course is David Andrews who was unceremoniously forced out as our town manager by the actions of loomis, carter, kunisch & abbott. (small people deserve small letters)

But---there a ray of hope as a result of this abominable action.

MIKE ZINKIN, who had committed to run for town council was so offended by what loomis and his 3 stooges did, that MIKE IS NOW RUNNING FOR MAYOR OF ORO VALLEY.

Mike already had our full support. I can only hope that he will now have the full support of every fair minded Oro Valley citizen that is so disgusted with what these four did to David and how they so callously undermined our community.

PLEASE! Do not let loomis get away with his dastardly deed.

VOTE FOR MIKE FOR MAYOR!
***********************************
The cynics will tell you that it was me that decided that Mike will run for mayor & Dr. Don for council.

These two intelligent adults determined what was in their and Oro Valley's best interests.

That is the bottom line.

Karen said...

I want to know where the candidates stand on NTC. Does anyone know?

Victorian Cowgirl said...

Thinker,

I'm the only one who will "get" your "paper costs" joke, but I have to admit that it WAS funny! Of course, it doesn't explain why Snider DID leave the papers but DIDN'T ring the bell. :)

Now on one hand, you wanted Zinkin to pledge that he wouldn't accept money from the Democrats, and when he said that he WOULD accept a donation from them, you said, "that's too bad." So clearly you don't like it that he would accept money from them.

But on the other hand you also said
that it was "nonsense" to believe that contributions influence candidates. So why do you care if he accepts money from the Democrats?

And while it's true that some of us have made donations ourselves and yet we question what could happen when a business or organization also makes a donation, realize that the difference is in the SIZE OF THE DONATION.

For example, if you were running for office and I contributed $25.00 to your campaign and Vestar contributed $10,000 to your campaign, I would worry that Vestar was trying to influence you, but I doubt THEY'D be worried about MY small donation.

Money talks...but only to those who can be bought.

Victorian Cowgirl said...

No one seems to like the theories I came up with as to why the 3 candidates bypassed my door, but no one has come up with any alternative theories either.

OV Objective Thinker said...

VC.. Glad you liker the "paper" reference.

Here is my theory: They are working off of a targeted list and maybe you weren't part of the trageted group. And frankly I doubt that they had a group meeting in front of your house to discuss the pro's and con's of putting literature on your door.

My "That's too bad." comment was based on the fact that the Oro Valley elections are supposed to be non-partisan. And they were until two years ago when Salette Latas solicited and accepted a contribution from the Pima County Democratic Party. I do believe that Barry Gillaspie was also a recipient of Dem money. That was a very visable example of how much respect both of them have for the election traditions of Oro Valley. I suspect, based on Zinkin's comments, that there has already been some discussion between Zinkin, Salette (she has endorsed him) and the Dem's if Mike makes it through the primary. That remains to be seen.

As for your comment regarding a "Vestar" contribution, you need to be aware that businesses cannot contribute to a political candidate. There are of course, some political action committees out there that can contribute but they and the amount are tightly regulated.

Karen.... There are so many "NTA"'s out there which one might you be referring to?

Zev said...

Art, your last post is baloney!!! You did not, during your conversation with drdon, suggest that he run for Council instead of Mayor. It was I, in a phone conversation with you during which you 'gushed' over Emmons, that suggested that perhaps Mike switch and run for Mayor as Emmons had no qualifications whatsoever to even be considered for such high position; you said you would check with 'others' for input and get back to me. Do you forget(?)there is more to your e-mail than I posted? Do you forget there are more e-mails relative to this? Want more? I'll give you more!

Art, your snow jobbing is going to come back and bite you!

Zev said...

VC, why don't you phone one of those 3 candidates and ask them; 'theories' simply don't answer your question.

Nombe Watanabe said...

KAREN.


WHAT IS NTC?

NOMBE'S BLOG RULES: RULE #1

(someone has to set rules it might as well be me)

If you use a code i.e. NTC You MUST do it in this format. Nuts to Commies (NTC). THEN you have Nombe's permission to use the code for the rest of your post. By the way each post must stand on its own, that is NEXT time you use the code you have to spell it out again.

Oro Valley Mom said...

Any "lack of respect" for non-partisan elections became a moot point when the postcard went out in 2006 from the Oro Valley Republican Club endorsing all the Republican candidates, excluding KC Carter, and including Don Cox.

Latas and Gillaspie were facing Terry Parish's war chest of $40,000 from Phoenix developers. They did a good job unseating him with far less cash.

artmarth said...

Zev--- You talk about "baloney."

What's "baloney," is your never ending attack on Dr. Don Emmons, a disabled veteran, and a DVM who cares about people & animals.

Could it be that you are a little jealous that Dr. Don saw fit to continue in the race for council, while you couldn't handle it?

You'll also note, I stayed clear of speaking negatively about "your" council candidates, while you continue to lash out at Dr. Don.

Shame on you.

As for your "dossier" on me, do whatever the hell you want with it. I could care less, so you might as well stop threatening me.

Zev said...

First of all, Art, I am not "threatening" you; the chips will fall where they will,that's all. Really now,I withdrew from the race because I couldn't handle it? That's a stretch; I can handle whatever I wish to if I so desire. In this case, along with other factors, after having come to the realization that you weren't all that 'kosher', I CHOSE to opt out because you are like a leech that attaches itself to an unwilling host.

Me, jealous of Dr. Don Emmons? No, I have my life and I'm quite happy with it. And, no, I'm not lashing out at Dr. Don, I simply feel he is not qualified to sit on a Council at this time for a variety of reasons.

You state that you stayed clear of negatively speaking out against 'my' candidates. What about your inferences that they are being bought and paid for? Huh?

It is YOU who appears to be the bitter one; it not only shows in your posts but it also shows on your face!

Victorian Cowgirl said...

Thinker,

Well, you think they were working off a targeted list. Zev states that they didn't have a list.

If they were targeting R's only, they would not have stopped at my neighbor's house (registered D's). If they were targeting D's only, they would not have stopped at my other neighbor's house (Registered R's). If they were targeting only those who voted in the last election or last 2 elections, they WOULD have stopped at my house.

Any other ideas for whom they were targeting?

I love a good mystery.

Nombe Watanabe said...

Once again, I find it hard to believe that a National, State or local political party cares about a small town election. I think you all are under a "delusion of reference".

To Wit: "I am important, therefore they are after me"

If you want a mystery go to the book fair. There is no mystery here.

NW

freedom fighters said...

From what I'm reading on this thread, it's a blessing Zev Cywan withdrew from the council race.

artmarth said...

Freedom fighters--- your opinion is shared by many.

OinStarr said...

VC
The only mystery here is a mystery you created around yourself. You are author, main character and the supporting characters. It's not a good mystery.

I think you suggested theories and OVOT's offered one up.

How's this for your mystery - the candidates were walking your street and one of your neighbors (a registered "D") told one of them where Victorian Cowgirl lives. So they met in front of your house to come up with a plan. One would dash over to your door and drop off the handouts (knowing all the while you were watching their every move out your window).

Or maybe they were just too tired to ring your bell after walking and talking for hours.

If this all you have to wonder about, why someone didn't ring your bell, then you need to seek therapy.

OV Objective Thinker said...

EVERYONE:

I hereby nominate Nombe as the LOVE Blog Sergeant-at-Arms. He and only he can rule if a post is inappropriate. The offending party must then apologize to the party or group offended. He can also rule on use of acronyms as he did so well today.

Now on to more targeted comments.

OV Mom....

The "Republican Club" made up primarily of a group of Oro Valley citizens and The Pima County Republican Party or the Pima County Democratic Party are three entirely different animals. There are no rules covering endorsements by clubs. It becomes more obvious that you do not know much about the subject by the following comment:

"...the postcard went out in 2006 from the Oro Valley Republican Club endorsing all the Republican candidates...."

The Republican Club did NOT send out a card. That would have been a considered a contribution and the Republican Club did not contribute and direct funds or in-kind donations to any candidate. Your post was factually incorrect.

I will therefore expect a retraction from you shortly.

You can keep spewing forth your trash about the Republican Club and a post card but it carries weight only between you and your mentor, art. The $2500 contribution from the Pima County Democratic Committee to Ms. Latas and Barry "I don't want a Police State" Gillaspie does carry weight and it is a violation of the rules.

art...... I also heard that the real decision was discussed and made by you and a group of others (including one sitting council person) during a strategy session at your home one afternoon. Now I do not know that to be fact because I wasn't invited (:-()but it does seem to support what Zev says in his post.

Could it be that the "king maker's" castle walls are starting to crumble....as predicted? There seems to be white caps on the moat that surrounds the empire of "La Reserveville"

OV Objective Thinker said...

FF...You see all the folks that jumped to join you. So far it's a gang of 2.

artmarth said...

Cox--- Do you realize the folly of your last comment?

You start with---

"I hereby nominate Nombe as the LOVE Blog Sergeant-at-Arms. He and only he can rule if a post is inappropriate. The offending party must then apologize to the party or group offended. He can also rule on use of acronyms as he did so well today."

Before you finished your comment, you offended two people---although I doubt anyone gets offended from your usual diatribes.

Referring to OVMom, you wrote;

"You can keep spewing forth your trash---."

Not satisfied, you probably thought it was "cute" to refer to Barry Gillaspie as "Barry "I don't want a Police State" Gillaspie."

Perhaps Nombe might consider "tar & feathers" a worthy punishment.

And, please tell me----what would you do without this blog? It seems you spend almost as much time here as I do. In my case, it's because I do a service to the community. In your case, it seems you don't have a life. Too bad.

As for the "castle walls crumbling," don't be too concerned. I'm not!

Zev said...

freedom fighters, why don't you elaborate on why you feel as you do. Are you simply in LOVE with the 'blog master'? Your posts seem not to have any 'meat' contained within in them. I have simply responded to misinformation as bestowed upon us by the master of this site; his 'affirmation' of your terse statement is as much 'dreamland' as are his accounts of actuality. I do respect your right to an opinion even though it might be of negativity towards me; it would be more meaningful, however, if you would elaborate on such conclusion.

artmarth said...

Freedom fighters--- Zev says ---"why don't you elaborate----?"

In his earlier comment on this thread, he opined that Dr. Don Emmons was not qualified to serve on the council."

That's well & good. He also wrote:

"Joe Hornat, Mary Snider, Lou Waters, Mark Finchem - these are very qualified candidates."

Pray tell---What makes Zev's new friends so "very qualified?"

Perhaps HE should elaborate.

Nombe Watanabe said...

Poor Karen. She asked a question and no one could answer it. (NTC? NTA? KFC?) anyway. Then, when she came back to the blog, all she saw was a swirl of invective.

I, for one, would be lost without the blog. I spend hours on Google Images looking for nice graphics to keep the bloggers on their toes.

By the way, are OVdad and OVmom related? and where is mscyote? These are the questions of the day.

NW

Zev said...

And, freedom fighters, after having known me for several years, Art Segal, the blog master, was literally begging me to run for a Council seat. What changed? Well, for starters, I began to observe that ego (his) had seemingly become more important to him than 'cleaning up' the politics of Oro Valley. Certainly, Art had some valid issues, but he then became obsessive about them and, having lost sight of that which he disliked about the processes which caused said issues, he tried to form a type of 'anti-establishment establishment', utilizing similar techniques to that which he had seemingly once been opposed. In simple terms he became the monster that he had once advocated
should be destroyed. One of the reasons I withdrew, and this was just one of them, was that I did not want this 'monster' hanging over my shoulders, attempting corruption, and trying to become a 'puppet master' of Council.

One late afternoon, Art Segal, held a 'special' meeting at his home; after this 'meeting' another candidate, who also became incensed, withdrew his candidacy; I postponed my withdrawal for awhile only because I was asked (pressured) to give more thought to continue. Who pressured me the most? Why this very Art Segal, our service-to-the-town blogmaster, of course!

Zev said...

Art, relative to your last post, if you can't figure out that which makes Mary Snider, Joe Hornat, Lou Waters, and Mark Finchem qualified for Council, and that you espouse that Don Emmons is, then I would suggest that you have a serious lack of perception - not good for such a well informed community 'power'.

artmarth said...

Zev---Our readers will judge who has changed---you or me.

You recently said you're gone from the blog. You noticed we managed to go on quite well during your all too short an absence.

I'll end this dissertation repeating what "Freedom fighters" said---

"From what I'm reading on this thread, it's a blessing Zev Cywan withdrew from the council race."

Karen said...

Sorry for the typo. It was NTS aka the Naranja Town Site.

While the dialogue here swirled into invectives, I went to the individual candidates' websites and cast my ballot accordingly.

Sorry, but I didn't vote for Zinkin or Emmons. It sounds to me like they'll be beholden to the people on this blog where civil discourse isn't looking like it's a strong suit. Our town is losing ground to Marana - we can't afford to have it led into the ground by bickering.

OV Objective Thinker said...

Nothing like a rainy day to keep people sitting at their computer.

Art...
The reason I nominated Nombe to be the Sergeant-at-Arms is that he can be objective as to offending people. Art's rule is: Cox speaks. Cox offends. Unfortunately you seem to be 'losing your grip' as there are more and more folks who don't agree with you. So I thought it would be appropriate to get someone who could be more objective. Did that offend you?

And I see you took offense to my comment toward OV Mom. She posted incorrect, inaccurate useless information. In my opinion, that falls into the category of "trash".
And I only quoted Barry Gillaspie. I don't know how you can consider that offensive when I quote someone unless you consider the quote to be offensive.

And I am glad to see that you consider this blog a service to the community. I believe the correct spelling is of the word is disservice.

OV Mom...Where is your retraction?

Zev said...

Art, your last statement, is that the best you can do?

Zev said...

It has been called to my attention that the phrase I used "I did not want this monster to be hanging over my shoulders" might be mistaken as being applicable to others that Sir Segal might be endorsing. Let me be clear that, knowing Mike Zinkin as I do, he is of an independent sort and I doubt that hizzoner, Mr. Segal would be able to 'control' or influence him; it is thus that I, endorse Mr. Zinkin for Mayor.

Oro Valley Mom said...

What rules does a contribution by a political committee violate?

Zev said...

Gee, Art, are you still hyperventilating because I
re-entered this site of yours and have the tools to debunk your claims that you speak truth and thus speak for the 'people'? Are you and 'freedom fighters' best 'buds' now? Aren't you against hiding behind pseudonyms? Or is that okay as long as they might side with you?

LOL everybody!!!

Zev said...

Oh, and one last thing (for the time being), KAREN, I applaud the manner in which you researched the candidates; I suggested that others do the same some time ago rather than simply vote by 'suggestion'. While I personally am very much for Mike Zinkin for Mayor, I can understand your method and respect that you came to your own conclusions. I regret that I have become embedded in the quagmire of this ugly stream; if you read my first post here, perhaps you can understand why I entered it. Thank you for your demeanor and candid commentary; it's refreshing!

Victorian Cowgirl said...

Regarding my postings and theories on Waters-Snider-Hornat avoiding my house:

OV DAD responded, "... or maybe it's just a conspiracy theory."

So I'll ask OV DAD this question:

Since you don't like Zinkin, I'll pose the question this way...You see Zinkin going door-to-door campaigning on your street, stopping at every house but yours. Wouldn't you question the thought process that went into that decision?

Victorian Cowgirl said...

To Thinker, I ask the same question.

You do not like Bill Garner. Go back a couple of years. Picture him going door-to-door on your street, stopping at every house but yours. Wouldn't you question the thought process behind that decision?


To OinStarr,

Your posts are usually so rude that I seldom read them so I don't know whom you like or dislike. Insert the name of a candidate you don't like into the above question. And wouldn't you question the thought process behind their decision?

OV Objective Thinker said...

OV Mom....Non partisan elections are to be avoided by political parties.

Victorian Cowgirl said...

And now my responses to OinStarr's last post...

"The only mystery here is a mystery you created around yourself. You are author, main character and the supporting characters. It's not a good mystery."

I ended my post with the words, "I love a good mystery" in an attempt to end on a light note. Unfortunately you have to take everything everyone says and turn it into something else so you can find an excuse to attack it.

"How's this for your mystery - the candidates were walking your street and one of your neighbors (a registered "D") told one of them where Victorian Cowgirl lives. So they met in front of your house to come up with a plan. One would dash over to your door and drop off the handouts (knowing all the while you were watching their every move out your window)."

Your most childish comment to date. FYI, no one on my street even knows that I'm Victorian Cowgirl. Therefore the theories I offered make much more sense than yours.

"Or maybe they were just too tired to ring your bell after walking and talking for hours."

Yes, that would explain why they continued ringing other doorbells on my street AFTER they passed my house. Next time you offer one of your "can't miss theories" try reading the entire post before formulating it.

"If this all you have to wonder about, why someone didn't ring your bell, then you need to seek therapy."

I've been posting on this site since it's inception. Feel free to go back and read them all. Then you'll really see how inane your comments are about me.

You did not offer EVEN ONE PLAUSIBLE THEORY as to why they avoided my house. You offered only a bunch of childish nonsense. But yeah, I'm the one who needs therapy.

OV Objective Thinker said...

VC....Your need for attention is showing.

First of all I don't sit in my home and watch every movement on the street outside. I usually leave my home relatively early in the morning and go to work. I might suggest that routine for you as it may solve this phobia you appear to have about wondering why folks don't stop at your house.

Victorian Cowgirl said...

Wow, I must have hit a nerve! No one can come up with a plausible explanation for what happened so everyone is going to deal with it by attempting to ridicule me instead.

I never said that I sit in my house and watch every movement on the street outside, but when I do see "activity" outside my window, I always check it out. Ever hear of a neighborhood watch?

Let's see...so far the reasons they didn't stop at my house is because...it's a conspiracy, they didn't have a targeted list, they did have a targeted list, they wanted to save on paper, one of my neighbors told them to avoid me, they were too tired.

But the real problem is that I need attention and I have some kind of phobia. Thinker, you post on this site more than I do, often using your real name. You must REALLY need attention.

At least my theories were plausible.

Would you all come up with the same theories if my front yard had signs for Zinkin, Emmons, Rabb, and Finchem? Do you still think there would have been some OTHER LOGICAL EXPLANATION for why Snider-Waters-Hornat skipped over my house upon seeing all those signs endorsing their opponents?

freedom fighters said...

Zev - instead of hanging out at the computer on this rainy day, I went to a play and had some laughs (Wife Begins at Forty), Live Theatre Workshop. I suggest that more of you take a break from this bickering, and do something similar - soon.

The bickering is tiresome & counterproductive, and THAT is what I was referring to in my comment about "blessings".

But lo and behold, I have come back to this monster thread to find that Zev now endorses Zinkin! Will wonders ever cease? I could have bet you would not have done that; I was wrong or misread your comments about him.

As for being pals with the master, not. I'm grateful he's put up this forum for we chatty types to exchange views upon, and I admire his forbearance with the snarkies that regularly comment. Actually, I look upon Art sort of like the Michele Malkin of O.V. Strange but true.
Well, I hope this clears the air on the points that you brought up regarding ff (me) and my thoughts in general. I may have to change my site name to "descant", which would be closer to the way I like to communicate.
Night-night everybody.

OV Objective Thinker said...

FF...Your post is very interesting.I think Zev stated earlier that he was supporting Zinkin and I also believe that he made mention that he had a Zinkin sign in his front yard. But Zev began to post once again (and I shouldn't be speaking for him but I think I can read between the lines) for one reason and one reason only. If you look at the original post, Art forwarded another cockamamie theory. It was laughable. Art puts forth the concept that you should vote for the individual(s) who have no talent to or desire to get out there and raise money for their campaign. Maybe I am the one that is completely off base here but in my mind, if you can't get the folks to chip in to help you then you don't have a strong message. Now there are purists out there that think that money is the root of all evil (VC would be one) but the reality of the political game is that you need money to run a successful campaign and the amount of money you raise is one measure af your ability to form and communicate a message. The subsequent donation is an affirmation of your product.

And so there are times when people post things on this blog that are not necessarily indicators of who or what we support, but because what is being posted is so far off base that it deserves comment. Then, as is his pattern, Art take offense (only because you were so bold as to disagree with his )and posts some worse garbage. (Look at his initial response to Oin Starr)

Unfortunately, there is no middle ground with Art. He will drive to unincorporated Pima County or Tucson to buy a product that is available at the OV Marketplace. In Art's mind no sales tax is better than 1% because the OV Marketplace represents something with which he disagreed. Where is the logic in that but more importantly where is your true support for the fiscal well-being of your community.

It's all about Art and not the community.

Anyway, I guess the short version is that some may disagree with Art's thought process and his methods of conveying the information, but not the underlying issue. And then sometimes it's just fun to post and watch the reaction.

Stay dry everyone!!!

Zev said...

ff, I have endorsed Mike Zinken from the very beginning! I have walked 2 Sun City neighborhoods passing out his literature (300 homes), have spoken with neighbors, have had his sign in my yard since day one, have encouraged neighbors to go to forums in which he participated, have 'irritated' one of the 'posse' mavens in Sun City because I called him out on an e-mail he sent out because it gave a false impression that Mike Zinkin, Matt Rabb, K.C. Carter, Don Emmons, and Mark Finchem were 'anti-police, and, I had thought that this was evident in previous posts although I did take an hiatus from posting for awhile.

So, now you should know that I am a STRONG supporter of Mike Zinkin! Unfortunately that probably got lost in this stream because of a plethora of other issues unrelated to him..

Zev said...

Thinker, thanks for the very astute post! I had written a 'response' to ff before I read it (shame on me). Your conclusions are accurate and you sum it all up logically and thoroughly.

ezek said...

VC give it up...no one cares

Chuck Davis said...

Altough he can speak for himself,
I want to provide my support of Zev's comment that he has supported Zinkin from the beginning. I know that he has supported him and worked on his behalf. I find Zev to be a loyal supporter who will stick with you through the up and downs that any relationship experiences.

Nombe Watanabe said...

For those of you who were afraid to ask FF what he wrote:

DESCANT. (also discant)
Old Northern French from Latin - Discantus.
Cantus is Latin for Song.

1. descant (music): a. counterpoint; b. the highest part sung or played in a piece of music.

2. discant: a. discussion; b. to discuss at length.

Victorian Cowgirl said...

Ezek,

It isn't that "no one cares." It's that they don't have a logical explanation for it so they're pretending that it's not important. When I pose a legitimate question that NO ONE can answer, the silence speaks volumes, as do the childish retorts.

BTW, the "incident" happened a couple of weeks ago and yet I never posted anything about it on this site when it happened. I kept it to myself until Zev commented that they were going door-to-door trying to get the pulse of the community and I thought, "That's not what happened on my street." I see nothing wrong with presenting both sides to a story.

My issue is not that they skipped MY house. My ego isn't that big. My issue is that they deliberately skipped A HOUSE...twice...which means it was deliberate.

Victorian Cowgirl said...

Thinker,

In response to your comments...

"Maybe I am the one that is completely off base here but in my mind, if you can't get the folks to chip in to help you then you don't have a strong message."

...According to that belief, then Hiremath has the strongest message since he collected the most money, but you're not voting for him.

"Now there are purists out there that think that money is the root of all evil (VC would be one)."

...Actually I think money, religious fanaticism and testosterone are the roots of all evil! Look at any bad thing that's ever happened in the world (caused by mankind) and you can trace it back to one or more of the above.

"The amount of money you raise is one measure af your ability to form and communicate a message."

...or it could just be a measure of your ability and willingness to pander to those with deep pockets.

As an example, I thought Finchem did a great job of communicating his message, yet he raised the least amount of money.

Eleanor said...

Does anyone have a prediction as to which, if any, candidates will receive more than 50% of the vote in the primary?

Victorian Cowgirl said...

Thinker,

I also drive to Tucson to purchase items that I could buy at OV Marketplace. Your spin on this is that anyone who does this is not "logical" and doesn't care about the "fiscal well-being" of the community.

If the fiscal well-being of Oro Valley depends on the fiscal well-being of the devil, I mean Vestar, my logic tells me not to support the devil, I mean Vestar.

Problem is, in YOUR world, EVERYTHING is about money. In MY world, honesty trumps money. Vestar was dishonest. It is "illogical" to give your money to a dishonest person. End of story.

Nombe Watanabe said...

Money get back
I'm all right Jack
Keep your hands off my stack

- Pink Floyd.

"By the way which one of you is pink?"

OVDad said...

VC... in your typical fashion, you deliberately misinterpret Zev's statement. If I were Art, I would actually throw all people on your side in one group and say you all use those tactics, but I hold myself to higher standards. It's either that, or you aren't smart enough to get that correlation does not imply causation, but I would never assume that.

Regarding the first point you make:

"Maybe I am the one that is completely off base here but in my mind, if you can't get the folks to chip in to help you then you don't have a strong message."

...According to that belief, then Hiremath has the strongest message since he collected the most money, but you're not voting for him.


Nowhere does Zev say, the strongest message equals the most money. He states that if you can't get any money at all, you don't have a strong message. That's not the same.

...Actually I think money, religious fanaticism and testosterone are the roots of all evil! Look at any bad thing that's ever happened in the world (caused by mankind) and you can trace it back to one or more of the above.

Well... ever since the age of mercantilism, money has played a central role in everyones' lives. In all of western history, men have been the dominant figures of the public sphere (luckily that's changing), and most of the time, these men were religious or in power because of religion. But again even 100% correlation does not imply causation. I could expand and I am sure so could you, but let's not because this is an OV blog.

"The amount of money you raise is one measure af your ability to form and communicate a message."

...or it could just be a measure of your ability and willingness to pander to those with deep pockets.


Again, Zev states "one measure" and you read "the measure". These are not the same. You could attack Zev's statement (which I happen to agree with) fair and square, but I don't think you are able to do that so you pretentiously misinterpret it. And that is just cheap.

Regarding the mystery you have created around them skipping your house, I have an answer. They have hired computer hackers with the money they get from special interest, hacked your account and got the real name that's behind VC so they can make sure not to stop on your door. Only Snider (the woman in the group) was not afraid to get shot when entering your property.

OV Objective Thinker said...

VC....You and art are from the same cut of cloth.

But more importantly, I will quote Ezek.

"VC give it up...no one cares."

OV Objective Thinker said...

OV Dad...I think you were really referring to my post and VC's bitter response.

Victorian Cowgirl said...

OV Dad,

If you've been reading this site since its inception, you would know that my "typical fashion" is to be objective. (eg. I have agreed with Thinker at times even though he is always rude to me, I defended Terry Parish when his personal life came under attack even though in his public life he was in bed with the devil, etc.) You would also have noted that my "typical fashion" is to be civil. But I'm beginning to rethink that strategy, since it seems that the civil people get ridiculed.

And no, I did not "deliberately misinterpret" anything. YOU are the one who changed the wording of my argument. Therefore, YOU are the one with the misinterpretation problem.

Thinker (not Zev) said, "The amount of money you raise is ONE MEASURE af your ability to form and communicate a message."

I said, "Or it could just be A MEASURE of your ability and willingness to pander to those with deep pockets.

You claim that I read it as, "THE MEASURE."

I didn't say it was THE measure, as in the ONLY measure. I said it was A MEASURE, as in ONE way to measure it.

You can't argue anything I've said, so to use YOUR words, "you pretentiously misinterpret it. And that is just cheap."

Your theory on the "mystery" is childish. But that's what people do when they don't have an argument for something. They taunt instead. You've lost all credibility here.

Go back and read my first and second post on this topic and ask yourself this question. What did VC say that was so awful that everyone felt such a need to ridicule?

Geez, you'd think I'd called them Nazi's or something! Everyone's anger on this issue is completely out of proportion to what I posted.

I simply relayed an observation and asked if anyone had any plausible theories as to why they would do this. No one did. So I offered some theories of my own. Notice that my theories were civil and plausible, not childish and immature.

So here's what transpired after I left the first post...

"Damn! VC just said something negative about the candidates I voted for. I need to defend them. Let me think. Damn! I can't come up with anything. Oh, I know how to handle this. I'll just ridicule VC instead."

OVDad said...

I have nothing to add to or revise my earlier post. The third argument needs to be read in perspective with the first one. Your reaction shows I was right.

Also, the fact that "theories" not "explanations" are needed to figure out what happened to you (as the Zinkin sign does not explain it since they stopped at houses with the same sign, I don't want to re-read 82 comments so what's your theory again?) says it all.

Victorian Cowgirl said...

To those who keep telling me to, "give it up, no one cares" why do some of you keep posting on this topic if no one cares?

If you're worried that my "observation" could cause them to lose votes, then you're admitting that their actions were questionable.

If you think it's a small issue or a non-issue and won't cause them to lose votes, then why do you feel a need to try to discredit me?

No one has been able to answer ANY of the questions I've posed on this thread.

Yup, I hit a nerve all right!

And if you're tired of reading this argument, then stop posting on it! Of course, you could also end this argument by offering a plausible theory. Your choice.

Victorian Cowgirl said...

OV Dad,

Theories...explanations.
Tomato...tomahto.
Same difference.

You've offered neither a theory nor an explanation.

And you wouldn't have to "reread all 82 comments" on this thread to find my theories. You would only have to reread TWO of MY comments. So much for me being the one who's lacking in logic.

Oh, I'm sorry. Was that rude? Well, I just graduated from the Thinkerbell School of Communications where you (OV Dad), Ezek and OinStarr are teachers. You've taught me well.

You continue to use rudeness and ridicule to respond to me, yet you don't even know what my theories are. That explains a lot.

Sorry to bore everyone here but I'm just responding to OV Dad's question about my theories.

My initial theory was that the Zinkin for Mayor sign gave them pause. Then I learned that at least 2 people in Sun City also had Zinkin signs in their yard and the candidates did not bypass THEM.

So my second theory was that there might have been an incident where they were made to feel unwelcome when they knocked on the door of a Zinkin supporter so they decided to avoid any more Zinkin supporters.

Another theory was that they were working off a targeted list and when they saw my name coupled with the Zinkin sign, they decided not to bother. But Zev said they didn't have a list. However, Thinker said that they probably DID have one.

If I were going door-to-door, I would have a targeted list so that I wouldn't waste valuable time knocking on doors of unregistered voters or anyone who hasn't voted in the last 2 elections. I don't know if they had a list, but if they care about time-management, they SHOULD have had one.

Anyway, the entire point of my original post was that Zev said they were going door-to-door trying to get a pulse of the community and I just made an observation that they didn't seem interested in getting a pulse from this Zinkin supporter.

That's why I think it's laughable how angry everyone got over this.