Dear Sir:
The Oro Valley Police Department is currently strongly attempting to fight cuts in the number of employed officers.
In the meantime, local merchants such as the restaurant Saffron on Oracle Road, (near their favorite ticketing spots), suffers a second vandalism, and a third Canyon Del Oro High School student dies from a drug overdose.
All this occurs while Oro Valley Police situate another unmarked car to give tickets to citizens.
Unmarked cars writing tickets ??
Cut the force, and put them to work protecting the community instead of harassing citizens.
Mary Reilly
Histologist
47 comments:
Agreed, Mary. There are far too many "traffic" related police incidents, requiring two or three cars for routine stops.
Clearly, we have too many police with too little to do.
Over the past month, numerous OV police officers have spoken at council meetings, all trying to impress us with how much OV needs every police officer it has and how DARE anyone even think of cutting even one job from the police dept.
One officer gave an account of a day on the job. What stood out to me was that she mentioned nothing about any armed battles with Mexican drug cartels or any drug cartel arrests. Yet at a previous council meeting, I listened to citizens who argued against cutting the police force because "the Mexican drug cartels are here, they're in our neighborhoods!"
As I said before, if that's true, then I'm all for keeping our current level of police or even increasing it, but I have yet to hear even one account of the OVPD vs. a Mexican drug cartel. I'm just so tired of people using FEAR as a method to get what they want. Let's address the issues that ACTUALLY exist and not the ones that only exist in some people's paranoid heads.
Then, of course, the OVPD grew even more angry when Councilman Gillaspie stated something like...if we allow the OVPD to run the town we're going to turn into a police state. They showed up in droves again at the next council meeting to tell Gillaspie how offended they were at his comment. One officer quoted the Wikipedia definition of "police state." I seriously doubt that this is what Gillaspie meant when he made that comment.
I never read into his comment what they read into it. My impression of what he meant by "police state" was having a situation where the town consistently rolls over for the police and allows them to make all the decisions, so you have a town run "for the police by the police" instead of "for the people by the people."
When looked at that way, was his comment really so offensive? No, it wasn't, but they twisted it into something else, something that they could attack.
Perhaps I'm also incorrect as to what Gillaspie meant by his comment, but the fact that I interpreted it one way and they interpreted another shows you that his comment is open for interpretation. So maybe they should have found out precisely what he meant before they attacked him in a public forum.
Their bullying behavior and their superiority complex is precisely what is a turn-off to so many people.
I really have no idea if we are under or overstaffed with police.
Have noticed that there are are usually more then one car involved with what is called a routine stop
But honestly, how do we know what is a routine stop. Lot of so called routine stops are what turns out for the officer as the Last Stop :((
About Gillaspie's remarks on becoming a police state, I was initially sort of shocked but think it was just a poor choice of words on his part.
I would rather have a few police with not enough to do then police with so much to do they can't answer calls unless it is almost an emergency.
Sorry I don't have any answers to the town's budget problems
As for the OVPD spending most of their time catching speeders (or so it seems) my only issue with this is that they pull people over who are only going 5-10 miles over the speed limit. They also like to wait at the bottom of a hill where physics forces you to go above the speed limit unless you ride your brakes all the way down the hill.
Instead of "catching" people who are the victims of physics, they should target those who are really speeding instead. I say this because criminals have no respect for the law. So the same person who just robbed a bank or who just made a drug deal, is the same person who will be going 65 mph in a 35 mph zone. When you pull someone over who is going 20-30 mph or more over the speed limit, you are also likely to catch them with something else like drugs or stolen goods. In this case, catching speeders is a good thing.
Remember Timothy McVeigh who blew up a Federal building in Oklahoma? He was caught when he was pulled over for speeding shortly afterwards.
I just have an issue with police pulling people over who are "not the enemy" and ticketing them for minor infractions. When they do this, I believe it's more about revenue than it is about public safety.
I always wonder where the cops are when I see people driving like crazy!
Mary Reilly mentions the cops waiting to ticket drivers on Oracle. Then again driving on Oracle is something I try to avoid.
I guess I missed that because I hardly ever see any cops on Oracle.
I do need to throw my two cents in about the student who died of an overdose of drugs. This may sound harsh to some but I have to say nobody forced this boy to take drugs. Not saying he deserved to die but to mention that in a letter about the OV police is really sort of strange, at least to me. Read were two Mexican illegal aliens were arrested for selling drugs in OV, think it was Heroin. Little Johnny and Suzy start taking hard drugs like heroin, next step is they are robbing your house and my house to pay for their drugs.
I will also say that I don't feel as safe in OV as I did when we moved here.
A town council member answered my letter published in the Explorer, and he strongly defended the usage of unmarked cars, stating that they are in use only to "counter road rage & aggressive driving".
My answer to his ludicrous statement was that one particular unmarked car (silver metallic Magnum), was situated a block from two churches at 8:30 am on a Sunday morning, with the radar gun pointed at passing cars.
Catch aggressive drivers & road rage miscreants with a radar gun?? New concept, Ov's finest.......
April 6, 2009 8:15 PM
Posted to Mary Reilly Opines On Oro Valley Police
I agree with Mary Reilly heartily.
I have seen this unmarked car writing tickets to drivers on Tangerine during commute hours, and have also noticed OVPD's usage of the so-called "wolf pack" to issue a speeding ticket to one driver.
How does one know for sure that it's a speeding ticket and not a major "bust"? The clue could be when they hand the ticket to the driver, who then motors off......
It is widely believed, among all of Tucson, that OVPD functions as nothing more than "tax collectors".
Using unmarked cars, to issue speeding tickets, is dishonest and should be considered entrapment.
Shame on the OVPD, and all those who condone this.
Mary Reilly
I support the police.
I support the town.
However, when budget cuts must come, then each department must take a hit.
Nombe
If you don't speed then you won't have to worry about getting a ticket
from a marked or unmarked police car.
Only thing I think is unfair would be for them to issue a ticket if you happen to be driving on a hill and can't help going over the limit.
Plus why blame the cops for this one, I will bet they are just following their orders.
I will assume the police chief and the town council is ok with issuing speeding tickets.
People if you don't like the speed limits then see if you can have the limits changed.
Personally I would not mind if they were lower in some area's of OV.
Dr Bob,
When I said how do we know what is a routine stop, I meant how does the cop know it is a routine stop. He or she never knows when they pull over a car if it will be routine or trouble.
Let's not forget it was April Fools Day!! Mary you obviously don't have a clue about police work. Thats ok with me until you start to say things that just aren't true.
Cowgirl you should be cautious but not fearful but sometimes the truth is scary. Are police supposed to be quiet so you don't become afraid. By the way, the cartel violence is here, it is true, ingnorance mixed with fear calls this paranoid so we don't have to believe what we don't want to face.
A routine traffic stop makes for a dead cop!!!
Go to KVOA.com and see how a "routine traffic stop" resulted in my father being kidnapped by a mass murderer.
Hi Terry--- Nice having you back commenting on the blog.
Although you certainly have more knowledge about police work than the average lay person, I would appreciate if you would enlighten me (and others) as to what things Mary said that "just aren't true."
Having read and reread her comments, I can see where you may disagree with her opinion on having unmarked cars being used as a means of entrapment, but that's what she and many others believe.
Certainly, you don't consider that as being "untrue,"----do you?
Art
Yes Art that statement is false. Look up entrapment. It basically means to entice someone into doing something they would not normally do.
An example would be the cops make a bet with Mary that they can beat her in a drag race. She takes the bet and races with the cops only to get a speeding ticket as a result.
Camoflage is not enticement or entrapment. If you can't do the time don't do the crime. Even when no one is watching.
Study after study shows that writing tickets even though I personally hate it, saves lives. Can anyone explain to me how that is harassment. If you don't want to talk to the scary armed policeman then obey the law, they have better things to do than to pick you randomly out of a crowd and harass you.
I am often discouraged that we live in the greated country in the world and for some reason we think we have the right to break the law and become victims of harassment when we get caught.
Also most people don't know this but many police vehicles that are unmarked are grant funded and required to be used to try to curb aggressive driving/road rage
Ever been tailgated or harassed by someone on the road? Those undercover cars make it much easier to observe their bad behavior and take away their licenses so they can't victimize you or anyone else later.
Mean ole "coppers"
Mr Parrish,
Amen to you. I don't see this twisted logic when it comes to the entrapment issue. By an officer driving an unmarked car, how does that make one drive faster?
If you are caught, you are caught. Man up and take the ticket and change your driving behavior. I was pulled over by the described magnum for speeding. The officer gave me a ticket. I was driving 64 down tangeringe which I certainly now know is a 45 mile per hour road. Looking back, I reallize that driving was reckless and aggressive with all of the houses in the area. I took the class and moved on. I didnt blame the department and claim that I was being harassed. Rediculous!!
Also, there are no victims of physics when it comes to the speed limit. Use your breaks or lower gears. This should not be a valid excuse for disobeying the law. MsCoyote- I do agree with everything else you say on this page though.
There is no such this as a routine traffic stop...How many officers do you hear about yearly that are killed on traffic stops? The Oakland incident was the most recent.
Terry,
Glad you're back. Maybe we can have some interesting, not one-sided, discussions for a change.
From what I've read about Mexican drug cartels, they have far more guns and ammo than the police so the police are incapable of doing much to stop them. How will the OVPD be any different? Can you give specifics on what they've done to prepare for this possible violence in our town?
As for speeding tickets, you asked how that can be labeled harassment. Let me give you an example.
A few years ago an OV cop clocked me going 35 mph in a 45 mph zone. I was going 10 miles UNDER the speed limit because I would soon be making a left hand turn. I also drive slowly to avoid hitting wildlife that might dart out in front of my car.
Yet, even though I was driving 10 miles UNDER the speed limit, the cop continued to aim the radar gun at my car just waiting for me to make a mistake.
When a cop continues to aim his radar gun at a vehicle that is going 10 mph UNDER the speed limit, he has crossed the line between public safety and harassment.
Why did he keep the gun aimed at my car? Because he knew I was approaching an area where the speed limit lowered to 15 mph, but where the 15 mph sign was not visible. He was hoping I wouldn't see the sign, which I didn't, and then he could pull me over for speeding, which he did. I was down to 25 mph when I hit the 15 mph zone and continued to slow down further to make a turn.
I did some investigating and learned that numerous other motorists were also pulled over at that same intersection because they also did not see the sign.
And the harassment continued. I was handed a $130. speeding ticket for something that was not my fault. It was the Town's fault for failing to properly locate the sign where it would be VISIBLE.
I suggested that the Town place a bright orange flag on the sign to make it more visible to motorists. They never did. Instead they continued to place a cop at that intersection to hand out more tickets. That's why I say that this is harassment and is done purely to generate revenue.
On one road you're deemed a threat to children if you drive more than 15 mph, meanwhile, on a nearby street is a sign that says, "Keep kids alive...Drive 25."
OVPD speaks with forked tongue.
The most I should have been given was a warning. Since I wasn't traveling at a high rate of speed at any time during this incident and since the Town was negligent for failing to properly locate the sign and continued to be negligent in that they did nothing to rectify the problem EVEN AFTER it was brought to their attention, isn't it harassment to give me a $130. fine as if the entire incident was MY fault?
Terry Parish,
Are you familiar with the gun laws in Arizona? I am sure you are familiar with most of them anyway.
So are OV police required to carry their weapon when off duty? And what about people having weapons at town hall meetings? Allowed or not allowed? I sort of think that the town would have to post a sign stating no weapons allowed inside, etc. And then there are federal laws that cover right to carry concealed, etc. I know the laws are complex. I am asking because another poster mentioned being upset about being in a room full of pistol packing cops. Ok, I know this is a right to carry state and personally I don't think it would bother me but I can see how it can bother others.
Tell us what you know about all this. Thanks
Once again we are way off the track. THE issue is the town budget and the cuts in staff which will come.
All town departments must take their fair share of cuts.
The police must take cuts just like other departments.
Carping about speeding tickets, guns,unmarked police cars and ill tempered Mexicans amoung us is not addressing the fairness issue!
Nombe,
Actually we are still on track. This post is about how OV police spend their time. That's what Mary's letter was about.
VC,
Well, yes, you are right, but the first line of Mary Rs ltr is the basis for my claim that we are missing the point. I quote:
"Dear Sir: The Oro Valley Police Department is currently strongly attempting to fight cuts in the number of employed officers"
I think they should "man up" and take a fair share of any budget reduction.
Law Enforcement is exempt in public buildings from being prohibited from carrying weapons.
It is reccommended not required that we are always armed because if someone the situation arises we are expected to protect you.
I wouldn't worry about the cops carrying weapons. I would be worried about cops that are disarmed. It wou;ld create the perfect scenario for a deranged person to inflict alot of harm.
Realize that cars kill more people than guns. I haven't heard anyone suggest we force people to walk to town hall but it's a very green thought.
25 in a 15 is speeding. He may have had the radar gun pointed towards you to get a speed on the traffic behind you....How do you know he had the radar gun activated? It was your responsibility to lower your speed at the 15 mile per hour sign to 15 MILES PER HOUR not 25. 10 over in a school zone is unacceptable. I am angry that you are putting my kids at risk by speeding through the school zone.
Guns.
It is my understanding that the Oro Valley police allows their officers to carry rifles so that in the event the cartel violence appears in OV they are equiped to handle it.
Folks it is here...I was driving up Oracle early one morning when I saw a group of hispanic males bolt from a pickup truck with a camper shell while a police officer was stopping it. By group I mean 15 to 18 guys. A few minutes later there were three other officers in their cars searching the area. I had the oppurtunity to ask what was going on as I live in the area. The officer said that they had a load of illegal aliens flee west from Oralce into the desert area near rancho vistoso.
The cartels have a heavy hand in the illegal alien smuggling.
I immediately went back home to check on my family but took comfort that the police were doing their job. I just wish there were more than 4 officers looking for that many criminals.
Also I dont see why certain people on this post are worried about the cops with guns at the council meetings. They should carry them. I like them ready to act when ever the event rises. It seems as though those of you on this page are trying to manufacture fear of the cops. That is most rediculous.
LBC-09,
I will respond to your points one by one.
(1) 25 in a 15 is speeding.
Not when the 15 mph sign is not visible. The last visible sign I saw was the one that says 45 mph. That, by the way, is also the last sign that numerous other motorists also saw. Many citizens in town complained about that "invisible" sign. It wasn't just that I couldn't see it, which one could argue may have been my fault. My research showed that numerous citizens complained to the town that this particular sign was placed in a location that made it impossible for anyone to see it.
(2) He may have had the radar gun pointed towards you to get a speed on the traffic behind you.
I was the only car on the road. No cars in front of me or behind me.
(3) How do you know he had the radar gun activated?
Because when he pulled me over he said to me, "Where it was posted 45 mph I clocked you going only 35 mph, so you were doing fine then, but you didn't slow down to 15 mph when you approached the 15 mph sign."
(4) It was your responsibility to lower your speed at the 15 mile per hour sign to 15 MILES PER HOUR not 25.
What part of "invisible sign" do you not understand?
(5) I am angry that you are putting my kids at risk by speeding through the school zone.
You should be angry that the town put your kids at risk by placing the sign in an area where it was not visible to passing motorists!
And at no point did I ever speed through a school zone. The purpose of the sign is to slow traffic down at the crosswalk where the children are crossing. However, I turned onto a side street before I ever reached the crosswalk. At no time did I drive through the crosswalk at 25 mph.
Keep in mind here that any motorist who wasn't turning at that intersection would have had no reason to slow down as I did and they would have gone through that intersection/crosswalk at 45 mph because that would have been the last sign that they saw! So your anger is displaced anger. You're blaming the motorist for something that was the town's fault! But you don't want to blame the town. Perhaps you work for them.
Also, as I approached the area, there was not one student in the crosswalk or even approaching the crosswalk. There were no kids anywhere! There were no cars or school buses approaching either. The intersection was completely empty. The crossing guard wasn't even there. And somehow all these visual cues were supposed to tell me that school was letting out. I can only base my driving decisions on what I SEE.
Sorry, LBC-09, but you are not going to win this argument! I was there. You were not. I know ALL the details. You do not.
Terry,
You asked if anyone could explain how writing speeding tickets is harassment. I answered you and gave an example. You did not respond. I'll assume that means that my point was valid.
LBC-09,
You also said that you were ticketed for speeding...
"I was pulled over by the described magnum for speeding. The officer gave me a ticket. I was driving 64 down tangeringe which I certainly now know is a 45 mile per hour road."
Interesting.
There are many very visible 45 mph signs on Tangerine but you somehow managed to NOT SEE any of them and you drove 64 mph down that road. You didn't see the MANY signs that WERE visible but you expect me to see the ONE SIGN that was NOT visible!
VC
I don't think your points are valid. I am tired of trying to show you the need to keep police.
Im sure we all have stories where we did not agree with those in authority. That doesn't make it harassment it just means you don't agree that is why we have judges.
I have read all your arguments and questions and can't help but think that you are so prejudiced against authority or the police that you will never use logic. You instead choose to revert to your story that has nothing to do with the challenges facing our region.
It is interesting to me that Janet Napolitano HS Director and President Obama neither of whom I like or agree with on most issues see the very threat I refer to.
Somehow, people with no experience in the field are experts and the experts are wrong.
You can lead a horse to water but even I can't make her drink. You've heard that before right Cowgirl?
I know you'll say I can't be objective because I am affiliated with police. Your right I have 14 years of experience here in Pima County and in those years I have learned the truth that many refuse to accept.
Terry,
The points I made in my story about the speeding ticket I was given have nothing to do with the need to keep all of our current police. My story was about harassment and how I got blamed for the town's negligence.
You said, "I have read all your arguments and questions and can't help but think that you are so prejudiced against authority or the police that you will never use logic."
My arguments were perfectly logical.
Can you give me a logical explanation for why the citizen should be fined when it's the town's fault that the sign was not visible?
Can you give me a logical explanation for why the town allowed the sign to remain invisible for the next 2 years?
Can you give me a logical explanation for why they couldn't even attach a $3.00 orange flag to the sign?
Terry,
First you said, "Study after study shows that writing tickets even though I personally hate it, saves lives. Can anyone explain to me how that is harassment?"
But when I answered your question and gave an example of speeding ticket harassment, you then said...
"You instead choose to revert to your story that has nothing to do with the challenges facing our region."
You didn't ask us to discuss the challenges facing our region. You asked us to explain how issuing speeding tickets equals harassment. So that's what I did.
Perhaps you weren't expecting anyone to be able to answer your question as well as I did and with the amount of detail that I gave you.
You also said, "Somehow, people with no experience in the field are experts and the experts are wrong."
Doctors are also "experts" and yet they make mistakes every day. No one is perfect. Experts make mistakes. Cops makes mistakes. Judges make mistakes. But you seem to be implying that because the cop and the judge in my case were both experts at what they do, this proves that I must be the one who is wrong.
I'm an expert at debating. Therefore, my debates are always right. Hee-hee.
I still do not see your scenario as harassment whether or not the sign was "invisible."
I highly doubt that officers decide one day that they are going to harass someone.
They probably have something better to do.
Also I know that the department has a traffic complaint service that I have called in on and gotten a great response.
Was the area you were ticketed in an area where there may have been some complaints about the driving in the area?
VC
The Judge was wrong too wow good thing you're always right. The restst of us can continue to be wrong. That horse still ain't drinking is it.
LBC,
The reasons I saw it as harassment were:
(1) He continued to aim the radar gun at my car even when he saw that I was going 10 mph UNDER the speed limit,
(2) He gave me a $130. citation instead of just giving me a warning. At no time was I ever traveling at a rate of speed that would warrant a $130. fine.
(3) Then the judge allows the citation to stand even after agreeing that the sign was not visible.
(4) And I haven't mentioned this yet, but during the court hearing, there was one set of rules for the officer and another set of rules for me.
Harassment is a feeling that is subjective so I don't expect everyone to see/experience this the way that I did. It was one of those things where "you had to be there."
Terry, Terry, Terry...
You didn't answer my questions.
Can you give me a LOGICAL explanation for why the citizen should be fined when it's the town's fault that the sign was not visible?
Can you give me a LOGICAL explanation for why the town allowed the sign to remain invisible for the next 2 years?
Can you give me a LOGICAL explanation for why they couldn't even attach a $3.00 orange flag to the sign?
And yes, the judge was wrong. Hey, even LBC has changed his/her mind after looking at all the facts and agrees that the case should have been dismissed.
Nope, the horse still ain't drinking. But if you can give me 3 logical answers to my 3 thought-provoking questions, then maybe I'll take a sip.
Giddyup!
Cowgirl, you said:
"Instead of "catching" people who are the victims of physics, they should target those who are really speeding instead. I say this because criminals have no respect for the law. So the same person who just robbed a bank or who just made a drug deal, is the same person who will be going 65 mph in a 35 mph zone. When you pull someone over who is going 20-30 mph or more over the speed limit, you are also likely to catch them with something else like drugs or stolen goods. In this case, catching speeders is a good thing."
I disagree with your assumption that people going 20-30 over the speed limit are more likely to be druggies or thieves. First of all, if I had just commit a crime, the LAST thing I'd want to do is draw attention to myself by speeding. Does it happen? Sure! Are criminals doing the majority of excessive speeding? Naw...I'd place my bet on young, inexperienced drivers who feel their youth makes them invincible.
And your argument about being a "victim" of physics is nothing short of ludicrous.
You seem to have a victim mentality. First, it was because you didn't see a sign to reduce your speed (I read it this way: you weren't paying attention to the signage like you should have been). Now, you are a victim of your own vehicle because you just can't seem to reach over and tap that brake to slow down.
I'd like to see you use that argument while you are traveling down the Mount Lemmon Highway or the Salt River Canyon. Know where you would end up?
Yeah...it wouldn't be pretty.
Suija,
Oh, for cryin' out loud! If you're going to respond to one of my posts at least have the decency to read it properly and not twist it into something else.
First of all, I didn't "assume" that criminals are more likely to speed. I've read many articles about this. I gave an example of Timothy McVeigh who blew up a building and then got caught because he was speeding. The person who broke into my home over a year ago was seen by my neighbor as he ran from my house. What did he do? He got in his pickup truck, sped down the street and drove right through the stop sign without stopping or even slowing down. So first he committed burglary, then he was speeding, then he went through the stop sign. That's what criminals do. They have no respect for ANY laws. They often get pulled over for motor vehicle violations and that's when police discover stolen goods or drugs in the car. Try reading a newspaper once in awhile. You might learn something.
And I never said that I was a victim of physics. I said that police often park at the bottom of a hill, hidden from view, so they can catch people "speeding" who are really just victims of physics. I personally have never been given a ticket for this. It was just an observation I made about where police like to situate their vehicles to catch "speeders."
So no, I don't have a victim mentality.
And I can't believe I STILL have to explain that invisible sign to some people. You said you read it that I wasn't paying attention like I should have been. Well, once again you read incorrectly.
Good grief! Even the judge admitted that the sign was not visible and numerous other motorists complained to the town about the very same sign.
End of discussion!
I say potato, you say potatoe.
How long ago was this ticket now? You need to let it go. Breathe deep with me - ooooooooommmmm - OooOOommmmmMMMmmmmmmmm....
Suija,
It doesn't matter WHEN it happened. It just matters THAT it happened.
I'm sure if you were ever mistreated by someone, you still remember it, whether it happened last week or 10 years ago.
I wouldn't consider getting a citation "mistreatment". If he had yanked you out of your car and tased you or sprayed you with pepper spray, I might be a bit more sympathetic.
Is that particular officer and judge even employed by OV anymore?
Suija,
Yanking me out of my car, tasing me, or spraying me with pepper spray would be considered "police brutality" not "mistreatment."
Interesting though how you consider those things to be merely "mistreatment."
Work for the OVPD, do you?
And yes, both the officer and the judge are still employed by the town.
Oh, so I'M the one you are accusing of being a cop.
I echo the other guy's sentiments. I am honored to be accused of being a cop. But no, I'm not.
Mistreatment = abuse
Police brutality = also abuse
My personal opinion is that you weren't mistreated. If you were, you would have won the case.
I believe you just enjoy whining (apparently for years) about something that you didn't agree with. So now every cop is the enemy.
Suija,
So now you have to be mistreated in order to win the case. To hell with the facts.
Whining? That's like when a man calls a woman a nag because he didn't do something the first time she asked him to, so she has to ask him again, and again, and again. Then she gets labeled a nag.
Now I'm labeled a whiner because I've had to retell this story over and over because some of you have poor reading comprehension...I say one thing, you read something else entirely.
You like to pick and choose. "Well, gee, I can't argue with THAT so I'll just pretend she never said it."
I'll just keep accusing her of being paranoid. That'll shut her up.
Nice try.
"That's like when a man calls a woman a nag because he didn't do something the first time she asked him to, so she has to ask him again, and again, and again. Then she gets labeled a nag."
Yeah...when a woman does that, she IS a nag.
v., nagged, nag·ging, nags.
v.tr.
1. To annoy by constant scolding, complaining, or urging.
2. To torment persistently, as with anxiety or pain.
You whine, so therefore you are a whiner.
"So now you have to be mistreated in order to win the case. To hell with the facts."
Talk about lack of reading comprehension. Apparently for you it is "to hell with the facts AND reading comprehension."
Suija,
Well, if nag means to annoy by constant scolding, complaining, or urging and to torment persistently, then you, my dear, are a nag extraordinaire!
Ohhhh...am I tormenting you?
Poor, poor baby.
No Suija, you're not tormenting me. "Acid does more to destroy the container in which it is stored than it does to the container on which it is poured."
I'll bet you can't even remember how our "debates" got started? I can. Terry Parish asked a simple question. How can giving a speeding ticket be considered harassment? I answered the question by telling him by speeding ticket story. At this point, it was up to HIM to debate me, not you.
But you chose to launch an all out war on me, which again begs the question, what's in it for you to get so worked up over this?
Terry is actually in LE, and he didn't get this worked up over it.
You'll have to find another outlet for your displaced anger since as I said on another post, I'm through debating you. You're an amateur.
You can leave all the messages for me that you want, but you will no longer get a response. You are not worth the effort.
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