As reported in the Jan. 28 Explorer, the Oro Valley Council voted 6-1 (Al Kunisch) to increase the home building fees.
The rationale for the increase was, as Council Member Paula Abbott said, "“We need to get back every penny and dime that’s spent out.”
Homebuilder Steve Solomon noted, "“It’s ludicrous to say that developers aren’t paying enough to the town to cover expenses.”
One might say that both of these arguments have merit. Perhaps our bloggers may wish to opine of this issue.
Read The Explorer article here.
http://www.explorernews.com/articles/2009/01/28/news/doc497f9e381ef35581780786.txt
23 comments:
Without judgment as to whether or not developers/builders 'cover' the costs generated by their impacts, the following is my opinion relative to how this town has become so monetarily dependent on 'impact' fees and whether or not we can maintain or progress a quality of life that we have chosen:
It appears that we cannot 'move' unless building after building after building is constructed in order for us to sustain ourselves as a community. This means also that, in order to perpetuate building after building after building, we must continually find more land and 'erase' more obstacles in order maintain ourselves. As we attempt to
do this it appears that we are depleting a quality of life that is (was) Oro Valley. How long can this mode of operation continue? In order that life goes on here it appears that the perpetuity of gathering more fees from more buildings must keep this 'engine' running; I see no end in sight. As I see it, it's like a wave coming at you when you are swimming off shore; instead of going under it, as it comes at you, you try to climb higher and higher, thinking that you can eventually get over the top of it, the result being that it will almost inevitably catch you and slam you to the bottom where the resultant outgoing tide will drag you out to sea.
As I see it, we must get away from
being slammed under. We have now been caught in our own trap of a cycle of fiscal 'violence'. How do we return to balance? I will offer no answers but will emphatically state that, though builders fees, and perhaps rightly so, must be brought in line with the cost of the town's cost, the dependency on fees to cover our asses cannot go on forever.
Agree Zev. Only thing I can add is that in my humble opinion a lot of OV residents would have gladly paid a reasonable property tax to protect what we had I don't think they will be so willing anymore
You are so right, mscoyote! Now I don't really know where this Town, this County, this State, or this Country will be headed; we've given away our manufacturing, we've given away our technologies, we've given away our agrarian advantages, and now we've given away the value of our currency. It's going to take a new spirit, a new energy, and a new mindset and that is going to take awhile!!
I think the one reason the US (and allies) prevailed in WW2 - and sucessfully created postwar Japan and Germany was because that generation experienced the great depression.
Is it simplistic to claim that adversity builds character? I don't know.
I think we may get a chance to find out.
The solution to this entire mess rests on three very simple solutions. Get the credit market working again. Get the government out of the way of private business. Stop the press from telling everybody how bad off they are. The entire economy would turn around.
Our greatest problem is that we have elected a government that is working us toward socialism.
Ms. Coyote....Interesting comment. What was it we "had" that we don't have now?
OV OT
One of THE major problems that I believe have contributed to the 'mess' we are in today IS the way that our credit markets have functioned(or disfunctioned). You say [let's get it moving again]; I say, yes, we prospered in part because of a credit economy however, our credit market got totally out of hand and, because of laxity and greed, was a major factor in the totality of the rise AND FALL of our economic sensibilities and thus our current realities. Get it moving again? Yes, but industry restraint must be in place (and not by government blackmail OR the promise of assistance 'just in case'). I agree that government should get out of the way and let the business chips fall wherever they may; only then can we get back to pursuing those economic principles that made us a great nation. Stop the press? No matter how mediocre the press is, they still have the freedom to be whatever they want to be. Do I like what the press is up to? No, but the only way to 'dump' their non-reportive and watery punditry is to respond with 'avoidance' and scorn. Moving towards socialism? I do not see how anyone can doubt that such is taking place. Which 'sect' of socialism is being pursued? Who can tell - and THAT is scary! As to mscoyote's comment about [what we had], I can relate strongly to that; however, I do not have the time to go into the subject right now but only will say that, in your statement, OV OT, you, too, look back at what we had, just from a different perspective.
Zev...Thanks for your intuitive comments. The credit market went wrong when Congress mandated (with penalty for nonconformance) that lending institutions should relax credit requirements to allow for low income families to "live the American dream" and be able to purchase a home. Whether they could afford it in the long term was not even a consideration. You know and I know where that mandate originated. You and I know that the trumpets of danger were sounded. You and I know that the sounds were quickly muffled by a certain group in Congress. And sadly they are still sitting members.
Which is the greater harm......the lack of a free press or a press that reports opinion? Where and when did we move from the nightly reporting of news to a 'news show'.
There is nothing I had in 1997, (when I move here) that I don't have now. In fact I now have more. I have a great town in which to live work and play. It could be better, but nothing, NOTHING, has been removed.
As one great American clearly stated, "We are a population of whiners."
OT, hopefully in a few years you will be able make the same statement that you [have more now than you did in 1997]. Unfortunately I cannot relatively make that assessment relative to myself. In 1997, while I lived elsewhere, I did live in a beautiful place, had a gorgeous home, a good income, my 'retirement' portfolio was growing, my other investments were sound, I caught the largest bass I ever had (lol), and people were in a very positive frame of mind; yes, life was good and, in reality, though I have to be a bit more cautious (especially at my age) in this day and age, it still is. However, the mood of the country is in a state of uneasiness and I don't think that you can disagree that our 'leadership' has been and is in a state of disarray and that, for me, is uncomfortable. I had a mindset of 'comfort' in 1997; I don't have that today. Whining is one thing, expressing a personal disenchantment is another.
Hi Zev...
My '97 comment related to Oro Valley. And I hope you didn't think I was refering to you with the "whiner" comment. I am far more dissatisfied with the federal government today than I was in 1997and, like you, my retirement fund was still growing then also. :-)!!!
Were those the 'good old days'???
Maybe when you have had a monumental health scare you tend to appreciate what you have and some things are not nearly as important as they once were.
It's interesting that I can usually find something in OVOT's postings with which to agree.
Not this time.
The world economic picture is much more complicated than you would have us believe. The housing issue is just one element. When someone in China hiccups, we get heartburn. So, the issue of home building fees is miniscule in comparison to the world situation.
Clearly, the Town knew for years that fees would not sustain the budget. Therefore, the only other place to look was to economic development since it was clear that the populace would never approve a property tax (if any Council had the nerve to put such a question on the ballot).
Well, now we see that economic incentives have not gotten us where we needed to be--mostly (but not exclusively) due to the international financial crisis.
So, interestingly, even some on this blog are saying that some sort of property tax might be preferable to the other alternatives.
I would suggest that Art put this question out on the blog and let's see the answers. Sales taxes (shared or not with developers) and fees are never going to balance the budget. And you'll never be able to cut expenditures to match revenue due to such critical situations as water, roads and public safety. So, where does that leave us?
Yes, OT, I think those might prove to be the 'good old days'. And yes, too, when you have had a monumental health scare (I hope you are well) you tend to view life a bit differently; aging itself has a tendency to do that also. One might get angry that the cherished past is no more; one might get angry that the future, as we used to believe, might not 'make' it; but, in reality, those are our terms and, for others, they might see a new reality which we don't understand. My father used to say "when I was a kid" and I hated it then, but now I think I understand. Listen to the recording of 'McArthur Park' sung by Richard Harris; some people think it's a dumb doper song because they can't make heads or tails out of the lyrics. Personally, I think it can be interpreted in a brilliantly metaphorical sense. And no, OT, I knew you were not referring to me when you used the term 'whiners'; so don't worry about that. I do understand the counting of blessings rather than the discounting of them and that the order and degrees of priorities do, in fact, change.
Bob k, I was typing a direct 'response' to OT while you more quickly made your statement and entered it. I would like to add a few comments to it but, for lack of time at this moment, I simply can't do it. Look for more from me tomorrow within this stream.
Bob K...I see we are posting with a new title.
What was the source of the current economic crisis here in the US. It was the housing market/mortgage crash. That's what positioned the lenders of the world to stop lending. FIX THAT AND ALL ELSE WILL FOLLOW. Get money flowing in the system once again. That was/is at the heart of the GM/Chrysler problem....their ability to borrow combined with the fact that folks couldn't finance an auto. At this point I don't give a damn about China.....we need to right our own ship rather than worry about the gastric abnormalities in China.
And just as a side note, spending millions of STD prevention, trails for off-road vehicles, new grass for the Washington Mall, etc. won't get the job done.
Thinker,
Am I losing my mind? Did you actually say - in writing - the following:
"I am far more dissatisfied with the federal government today than I was in 1997 and, like you, my retirement fund was still growing then also."
So you, too, were happier and more satisfied and your retirement accounts were doing better and you were happier with the Federal Government during the Clinton years than you are now after the Bush years?
I wholeheartedly agree.
As for socialism, you worry about it happening under Obama, but if the Fed. Govt. gave Oro Valley $150 million to build the Naranja Park, you would take it. Yes? You accept your monthly Social Security check. Yes? Conservatives are always against socialism unless the check is made out to them.
You said, regarding OV, that nothing has been removed since you moved here in 1997. What about all the huge swaths of desert that have been cleared to make way for cookie-cutter homes that look like housing projects? You know the kind I'm talking about...the kind where not one tree is left standing. Isn't that a major loss?
By the way, glad you're back. I missed my sparring partner!
Zev,
You are correct that we've given everything away...our manufacturing, our technologies. My husband always says that we don't make anything in this country anymore. All we do is move money around. He's said for years that we were living in a house of cards.
His aunt, 90 years old, has been saying for the past 5 years that she was seeing the signs of another Great Depression coming. A 90 year old woman saw the signs 5 years ago but our own government couldn't see it!
Bob K,
As for a property tax, I would have gladly paid it to keep Oro Valley the beautiful place it WAS when I moved here just 5 years ago. But as I consistently watch a desert landscape turned into concrete and asphalt, rural roads with dirt shoulders turned into 4-lane highways with concrete medians, traffic lights and street lights destroying my once pristine view, and junk malls built on scenic corridors, well, I'm not willing to pay a property tax for THAT.
VC....
How the hell r ya??? You have been noticeably absent from my posts recently...but then I have gone on a posting diet as of late.
Would I take the $150 million for the park. The answer is a huge yes. That's our collective money coming back to us. That's not socialism. Do I accept my Social Security check. I look forward to it each month. But that is simply Uncle Sam giving me back the money I have allowed them you use over the years. I could have done a lot better if I could have had the option of investing that money on my own. Do I want the 40% of people in the United States that pay no income tax to get a 'refund' NO. Do I want 95% of the people to get a tax break. NO. I want all 100% to get a tax break. I don't want the people that make money punished because there are others that refuse to make money because 'Uncle Candyman' will send me a check. That's the socialism I don't want to see. Do I want to spread the wealth. NO. I want everybody to be wealthy on their own to the level of their God given talent.
And I can't get into what has happened over the past 12 months to my retirement funds because Artski will will go berserkski. But I will give you a little clue.....Barney Frank, Chris Dodd and Ms Watters of California. It's what the 90 year old lady saw that they ignored.
PS...There were no "huge swaths of desert" removed in the past 5 years or for that matter since 1997when I moved here. In my opinion, Oro Valley is a far better, more well rounded community now than it was 5 years ago. By far the largest development from a land standpoint is the great OV Marketplace and that was waste farm land that was frankly an eyesore. You may not like the look of it now but I submit that it is better than what was there and as it matures it will be a relatively beautiful spot in our fine community.
I'm sure there is sufficient material here for us to spar over. Good to hear from you!! :-)
Thinker,
There were NO huge swaths of desert removed in the last 5 years? What about the 80 acres that was cleared across from the post office, replaced with homes built on top of each other? You and I have discussed that parcel of land in the past. It USED TO BE 80 acres of pristine desert and home to an abundance of wildlife.
Same for the area north of Moore Road at LaCanada. They didn't leave a tree or cactus standing. My husband actually got out of the car one day and measured the distance between two homes. It was 12 feet!
Scientific studies have shown (and hopefully with the new administration we'll actually start paying attention to science) that temperatures rise when vegetation is replaced with buildings, concrete and asphalt. I recently read somewhere that the nighttime temps in Phoenix have risen by (I think) 7 degrees in the past 40 years and this is because the buildings and asphalt retain the heat during the day and release it at night so the nighttime air doesn't cool down anymore. Of course you can feel this phenomena during the day, too. It's much hotter standing on an asphalt parking lot than it is standing in an area surrounded by vegetation. So THAT'S what we have lost.
Back to socialism, it seems to me that some people are for socialism in ANY form (not me), some people are for socialism only if it benefits THEM personally (not me) and some people are for socialism when it BENEFITS SOCIETY as a whole without DRAINING society as a whole at the same time (put my name next to that one.) Does socialism sound so bad when it's put in those terms?
I'd rather take "our collective money coming back to us" and put it towards fixing our crumbling infrastructure than to put it towards building a park. But that's just me. And I'd venture to guess that the people who'd rather have a park would be the first ones to sue if they or a loved one were seriously injured or killed in an accident involving the collapse of a bridge or tunnel whose repairs were neglected while the money was funneled to build a softball field or some other UNNECESSARY project.
There will always be some lazy people who will take advantage of socialism just as there will always be some greedy people who will take advantage of capitalism. They're both users in my book.
VC.... I'm sorry but I can't agree that the 80 acres we have discussed many times before was "pristine desert and home to an abundance of wildlife." It was a corner piece of decaying vegetation with bike paths through it and surrounded on three sides by residential development.I walked every inch of that parcel more than once and never saw a single form of wildlife other than ants.
The area to the north had ATV tracks running through it along with an abundance of other man-made junk on it. (You want to save pristine desert...get our legislators to ban the use of ATV's on state and federal land except for hunting purposes.)
In both examples ALL of the significant vegitation on the parcels was tagged and saved.
I still see coyotes, javilina, bobcats, hawks, owls, etc. in every part of Oro Valley. They love the big juicy rabbits that breed like...rabbits on the golf courses.
As for your touch on the 'global warming' controversy, talk to the folks in Arkansas and Kentucky who are trying to clean up after the worst ice storm in their history that killed more than 20 people.
Socialism breeds laziness just as it did when the Pilgrims arrived and formed Plymouth Colony. They tried it then and it didn't work and it has never worked since. The most current evidence is the medical systems of Canada, England and most of Europe. It just doesn't work. Having said that, there will always be some form of socialism present in our country simply because there are people who, through no fault of their own, can't survive without assistance. We need to care for those people to the best of our ability. But you know as well as I do that there are millions on the dole (including illegal immigrants that should be removed)that are there only because we have made the system far too easy to milk. THAT'S THE MONEY we could save and funnel into a far more productive purpose......such as give it back to those who earned it in the first place.
This is fun!!!
VC... A friend of mine sent me an e-mail today that contained the following. I couldn't resist passing it on:
> The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other
people's
> money.
>
> ...margaret thatcher
Enjoy this Chamber of Commerce beautiful Oro Valley day!!!
Thinker,
And the problem with capitalism is that it leads to corporate greed and results in capitalism being bailed out by socialism.
Just because the 80 acres near the post office was surrounded by residential developments on 3 sides doesn't mean that we had to develop THAT parcel, too. Why should only the wealthy get to have a desert view from their million dollar homes on their multi-acre lots? You can build a residential area on one side of the road and leave the other side of the road untouched so, God forbid, even the middle class can have a desert view!
I would love to see ATV's banned on State and Federal land, in all cases, including hunting. After all, what did hunter's do BEFORE ATV's were invented? They walked!
You said, "ALL of the significant vegetation on the parcels was tagged and saved." To my knowledge, only the saguaro cactus is protected so I assume everything else was destroyed. I think the prickly pears, barrel cactus, palo verde trees, cholla trees, etc. are all significant! They provide shade, cool the air, and provide shelter to wildlife. I understand that they even bulldoze 800 year old ironwood trees which are home to an abundance of wildlife. Nothing is sacred.
I actually wasn't discussing global warming, I was only discussing what happened in Phoenix (and what will happen in Tucson) when you replace natural desert vegetation with concrete and asphalt. Try to stay on topic. Do you disagree with my assertion about the increase in temperatures in Phoenix since the 1960's and the cause of that increase? I'm guessing that you didn't have an argument for that so you changed the subject to the ice storm in Kentucky.
If you have time, look at these two parcels of currently undisturbed desert that are planned for development. One borders Tangerine, the east side of LaCholla and the north side of Glover. The other borders the west side of LaCholla between Glover and Naranja.
Would you described these parcels as "a corner piece of decaying vegetation...and no wildlife other than ants?"
VC....All significant trees are saved and cacti. I do not believe any prickly pear or jumping cactus are saved because they are so abundant and grow so easily. There is (was) a program where you can buy these products far less than at a nursery.
I will look at the parcels you mentioned.
If you want a desert view, now is a great time to buy a place with one......and I know a really great, talented, knowledgable Realtor who is great to work with. (Pardon my grammar) :-)
But if I buy another home now with a desert view, won't that view just be destroyed in 3-5 years anyway...just like they're destroying the desert view I originally had when I bought THIS house?
VC...Not if you buy a home where the view is protected. Part of the due diligence is knowing what is behind you and what are the potential uses for that land. It really is relatively to check.
Corr::::relatively easy
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